Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

I'd say that one of the better ideas so far is one that hasn't been deeply explored: allow fighters to be constructed a la ships, albiet with only one hull point, no shields, and no hyperdrive.  They could also be given overthrusters as standard, perhaps?

This would mean bookeeping could still be kept to a minimum (one hit is still one kill), and these 'miniships' could move in their own phase, without specific move orders (and perhaps some sanity could be instituted: more engines on a fighter moves first in this phase).

Second are anti-fighter weapons.  Current AFB are somewhat weak, but if you use either Squadron rules or allow them to stack (IE, 2 AFB means 2 casualties per 'one' rolled), this is easily overcome.  An option allowing a weapon to fire at the end of the fighter phase instead of during the ship phase, but limiting its targets to fighters, could also be practical.

Finally, one could significantly reduce the capabilities of the 'base fighter' -- no longer halving shields, moving only 6 or 8 hexes, etc -- and design a host of new abilities costing "1.X" to allow for more flexibility -- for example, 1.1 or 1.15 per extra hex of movement.

Just some thoughts!

-Adso

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

BrotherAdso wrote:

I'd say that one of the better ideas so far is one that hasn't been deeply explored: allow fighters to be constructed a la ships, albiet with only one hull point, no shields, and no hyperdrive.  They could also be given overthrusters as standard, perhaps?

This would mean bookeeping could still be kept to a minimum (one hit is still one kill), and these 'miniships' could move in their own phase, without specific move orders (and perhaps some sanity could be instituted: more engines on a fighter moves first in this phase).

Second are anti-fighter weapons.  Current AFB are somewhat weak, but if you use either Squadron rules or allow them to stack (IE, 2 AFB means 2 casualties per 'one' rolled), this is easily overcome.  An option allowing a weapon to fire at the end of the fighter phase instead of during the ship phase, but limiting its targets to fighters, could also be practical.

Finally, one could significantly reduce the capabilities of the 'base fighter' -- no longer halving shields, moving only 6 or 8 hexes, etc -- and design a host of new abilities costing "1.X" to allow for more flexibility -- for example, 1.1 or 1.15 per extra hex of movement.

Just some thoughts!

-Adso

A cool idea, and one that was successfully implemented in Renegade Legions between Interceptor and Leviathan...unfortunately those rules were set up with that scale conversion in mind.  I can see doing this in Starmada as potentially throwing the 'fighter scale' outta whack with the rest of the game though...great care would be needed IMO.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

I think you just have to be careful it doesnt start sliding towards the nightmare that was the pseudo-fighter rules in SFB. Yeesh! smile

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

I don't really WANT to extensively customise my fighters. Call me boring....

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

BrotherAdso wrote:

I'd say that one of the better ideas so far is one that hasn't been deeply explored: allow fighters to be constructed a la ships, albiet with only one hull point, no shields, and no hyperdrive.  They could also be given overthrusters as standard, perhaps?

The trouble there is that some players already field 1 Hull ships without hyperdrives as in system patrol boats. And they can get a broader array of weapons and/or defenses than I envision for fighters.

I think that would leave it in the realm of optional rules, at best.

IF, this was was endorsed they would have to get something on the order of .5 hull or less before I spent the time to use it.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Several months ago, I created a Fighter design spreadsheet and posted it to the yahoo groups file section in the Starmada X section.  It is called "Starmada X Custom Fighters 1.03.xlt ".  I extrapolated the standard Starmada X designs down to a hull size where 6 fighters fit into 50 SU (at TL0).  There are a couple of other fighter specific options that are in the sheet to accomodate the standard Starmada X fighter options.

Jimmy

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

nimrodd wrote:

Several months ago, I created a Fighter design spreadsheet and posted it to the yahoo groups file section in the Starmada X section.

I remember giving that a cursory look, and thinking it seemed like the right idea. I'm just not a fighter junkie, so never tested it out.

Maybe I'll make some time for it.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the fighter mechanic or the application. However I will admit that the cost may need some attention.

But, ultimately, your only restriction is what you can get people to play.

If you want to track half-hits and individual fighters, so be it.  I think fighters work fine as is and (actually) the customizations that are allowable are the problem that could overbalance them.

Plain vanilla fighters for me!  But do whatever makes you happy big_smile

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

I'm not sure the constructing fighters as hull 1 ships is the answer.......


The game is set up around the capital ships..... If you set fighters as hull one ships, then the other ships in the game have to go larger (Hull 20 battleships are only equivelent to 20 fighters.... does that make a Star Destroyer a hull 72 ship? It does carry 72 fighter craft.........


My suggestion is having the fighters as they are now, with even the 10 movement, but they do not halve shields.... and then have bombers, with a higher cost, that halve shields, and maybe a movement of 9 .  And maybe high speed interceptors, with a speed 12, but do no hull damage to capital ships.....ect.

I have also looked into an earlier response.... that if fighters didn't halve shields, then they would be worthless..... but that becomes true of any weapon...... even a 3/1/1 weapon with repeating still needs to roll a 6 to get through strength 5 shields.......... Anything that modifies the chance to get through shields is extremely expensive... unless you decide to use fighters..... and fighters can pretty much outrange any weapon in 2 turns or less.

Finally, everyone talkes about the anti-fighter weapons, and true, they work well... short range 3/1/1 with a few options...... The downside is that short range. To get the high rate of fire, and the repeating, ect.... you sacrifice range. If the player with the fighters waits until his capital ships engage, or only engage his capitals at a longer range, those weapons are kind of worthless..... and after they are damaged, send in the fighters to mop up.  My fiance did it to me already.... she developed a weapon 3/2/2/ at range 18 with no hull damage, repeating, reversed range modifiers.  The base to hit number was 4+  so she needed a 3 to hit me at long range.... half of my weapons didn't reach her, as I was using anti-fighter weapons (we were experimenting with generic ships) and hosed me. By the time she decided to send in her fighters, I didn't have the weapons to stop them anymore..... and they finished the battle (awesome tactics, and exploiting my weakness...... I should have seen it coming)

I only ask that everyone remember that these are opinions..... I love the rules as they are..... I was just looking to add more color to the game.

John


And every

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Nothing says AA weapons have to be short ranged. Like I said above, a Range 9 4+ 3/1/1 weapon makes a nice general purpose weapon and isnt that expensive to field. A handful on assorted ships and you are generally pretty well protected against all but the largest Fighter swarms.

As far as Fighters not halving shields, I still think you'd have to reduce their cost accordingly or they are not worth it. 50-60CR is pretty steep for effectively an R:1 6/1/1 that is extremely vulnerable to return fire. That is 50-60 RAW CR. Almost no weapon that is that weak will add that much CR to a ship. As an example, take the following:

A Size 6, Speed 9 Shield 4 ship. Create a weapon that is R:3, 5+ 3/1/1. That weapon's base SU is only 4(!). OK, you can mount 15 of them forward firing on that ship (AB arc) That 45(!!) dice to attack and they are more accurate than Fighters at R1 (because Fighters hit on 5-6, these are going to hit 4+ at that range). The ship's CR is 123, or about the equivalent of 2-3 Squadrons of Fighters.....Obviously the Fighters are a little more versatile in that they dont have to plot their movement and can guarantee getting the first shot etc, but that ship is still getting almost 4 times the firepower with the same speed and probably more survivability (although that depends on the enemy weapons).

That said, I see Fighters as one of the potential screws to any battle. If someone brings enough of them to the battle and you HAVENT set yourself up to deal with massed Fighters, you can pretty much say good night. So, to me it behooves the players to make sure that the game isnt always played double blind when it comes to enemy forces. People should have a reasonable idea of what they are going to face to prevent 'gotchas'.

There are a number of such 'gotchas' that are possible but massed Fighters are the easiest one to pull off without seeming like a complete cheese monkey. smile Because as I said above, Fighters act a force multiplier amongst themselves. The more that are brought, the more powerful the 'alpha strike' and consequently, the less return fire they have to endure.

I would also mention that when trying to determine what WAS optimized in the game, we identified Inverted Range, Repeaters as a bit over the top for a 'fun' battle, especially if its base to-hit is 3+. At LR, it makes the hit number 2+ and with repeating, it leads to about 5.5 hits per shot (and in the case of your wife's weapon x3 for RoF = about 17 hits, x2 for Pen = about 34 Pen dice..even when fired at a shield 5 ship, that leave 5-6 to penetrate the shields and then with a 2 Dmg, thats between 10-12 damage on average) Keep in mind that that is against the largest shield factor possible. Having any lesser shields means you are likely to be incinerated in one shot. The No-Hull Damage brings the cost down considerably, but that much damage still reduces most ships to empty hulks in a round or so.

So, my bet is that she could win most games with that weaponry loadout without regard to the Fighters. Its just way too unpleasant for a 'fun' game IMO. Repeating is the only weapon without a damage cap...it can generate effectively unlimited damage on good rolls. Nothing else comes close in terms of potential damage curve. (I have a friend who graphs such things out for fun and its an eye-opener sometimes to see the results).

If you want a fun companion weapon, go with a R6 or R9 3+ 3/2/1 Range Based RoF and/or Range based Dmg/Pen and Double Range mods. It will be reasonably cheap and will again annihilate anything that comes close. So, you have your choice of staying at range and being pounded by the repeater or closing in and dying even faster to the range-based weaponry.

A lot also depends on what Optional rules you are using. We quickly found that the Emergency Thrust rule makes short-ranged weapons devastating. You can quickly negate a range advantage and if your ships are loaded with a preponderance of Range-based weaponry, you can pour out sick amounts of damage in single round.

The game provides a great framework for setting up battles. But to me, its really necessary to have the opposing ships designed to be more 'fun' than optimized. Its something my group has a hard time with, but the experiments with 'anything goes' have led to games that were basically won and lost before ever beginning. Sun Tzu states that every battle is won before its ever fought, but that doesnt lead to a very fun game. smile

Be that as it may, the system is definately flexible enough to allow for house rule changes such as what you propose for Fighters. For me, I think the current Fighter rules (with a few cost tweaks) are fine as long as the game itself is 'policed' to make sure that its going to be fun for both sides.

Please post how your Fighter changes work out in practice.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Uncle_Joe wrote:

That said, I see Fighters as one of the potential screws to any battle. If someone brings enough of them to the battle and you HAVENT set yourself up to deal with massed Fighters, you can pretty much say good night. So, to me it behooves the players to make sure that the game isnt always played double blind when it comes to enemy forces. People should have a reasonable idea of what they are going to face to prevent 'gotchas'.

Great wisdom there Uncle_Joe!
In the campaign we are playing there are few fighters at first. The history explains that they tried them before but they weren't effective and fell by the wayside.

Tech has changed, and the ships no longer have a credible defense against fighters. The players are now moving to put together anti-fighter capable ships and finding ways to field effective fighter forces.

It is a fun transition to watch and shows the versatility and value in understanding your opponent and working the tactics accordingly.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

I've got a game on Friday in which I expect one player, based on the performance of his fighters in the last game, to field little but one butt-normous carrier and several different specialized fighter types.  However, I'm stuck wth a fairly generic fleet...we'll see how it goes.

If you care, you can evaluate the balance of forces yourself we're playing with my Deltan Sector ships: I'm fielding a Warhawk, two Rangers, two Clippers, and four flights of Defenders.  I expect him to come to the table with at least one Tuari, probably two, and several flights each of Boomerangs, Warhammers, and Impis.

Regardless, if we have time, I think we'll try out the fighter design spreadsheet, too, to see how it works.  One question: why this 'fuel' business?  It seems to take a great idea and incorporate WAY too much bookeeping...)

-Adso

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Oh, when I said 'if you're interested,' I meant to point out that my Deltan Sector ships are on the Bourbaki Basin board, under 'the Deltan Sector Redux'....doy.

-Adso

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

BrotherAdso wrote:

Regardless, if we have time, I think we'll try out the fighter design spreadsheet, too, to see how it works.  One question: why this 'fuel' business?  It seems to take a great idea and incorporate WAY too much bookeeping...)

If you want, just ignore the fuel.  The main reason for the fuel was that once I put everything in the base fighter, I ended up with about 57% empty space.  Other people had commented on other games that had fighters with a range limitation of 6 turns (easy to put a small die on the stand denoting turns left), so I set 6 turns as the base and calculated fuel useage from there.  That was the only reason for the fuel.

Jimmy

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Normally, my fiance and I do theme based fleets, and everything is farely well balanced.....

Every once in a while, we like to do an extreme style game, though.... that weapon she developed was for one of those.... and yes, I did get creamed, but it took a while, as my PDS was extremely effective.

She didn't like getting 60 drones in one round either..... I designed 3 ships each carrying as many drones as I could fit on the frame..... (about 90 or so) and during the battle, I kept sending them out in waves.......

Any extreme will kill a ship not set to counter the exteme.... but once the other players know what you plan... they can usually come up with a counter.

On the fighters, I hadn't actually looked at the CR..... This discussion started as a simple curiosity question......

With the CR cost, the half shields ability makes sense...... Although I would still like to see something for bombers........ As has been already mentioned, assault fighters are better bombers than the bombers are.......

John

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Jimmy,

Now that fighters have 'engines' on your SCXA Fighter, do they also have to keep track of their facing?  Or are they just considered to have 'infinite overthrusters'.

On another note, we played a couple battles last night, neither was super fighter heavy, but the little guys did do some interesting things.  In one battle, by carefully sneaking them around and concentrating them just out of enemy range before striking, I disabled my opponent's Warhawk class cruiser (once again, see the Bourbaki board) with four squadrons of Defenders.  In the meantime, he sent three squadrons of Cropduster-D's and one squadron of Tiger heavy fighters in a straight but staggered wave at my formation of two Ranger-I light cruisers and one Warhawk.  Though they disabled one Ranger-I, the combination of AFB, the manuverability of the Warhawk (which ran like hell), and the four ROF-2 4+ to hit batteries on each Ranger meant the results were dissapointing to him, at best.

In the second game, a number of Warhammer heavy bombers had an inconclusive slugging match with a Thunderchild (the exact sort of ship that was supposed to be able to counter them), while successful interceptions led to several long running dogfights that kept most of the other fighters (Impis, Cropduster-D's) tied up.

Anyhow, we've expressed interest in that 'constructed fighters' idea, but as my question above indicates, there are still issues to be worked out with it...

-Sam

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Actually, the fighters have been working themselves in game very nicely. I have noticed though, that carriers are expensive. Due to the cost of the fighters, the carriers end up with far larger values than an equal sized capital ship built for pure combat.

John

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Nahuris wrote:

Actually, the fighters have been working themselves in game very nicely. I have noticed though, that carriers are expensive. Due to the cost of the fighters, the carriers end up with far larger values than an equal sized capital ship built for pure combat.

A wrinkle in the point formula that I think has a great side effect; namely, of making dedicated carriers more cost-effective than ships with fighter bays stuck on willy-nilly.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Because Fighters add the same amount to OCR and DCR and because of the final formula for a ship's CR, Fighters cost less to put on ships which have more symmetrical OCR/DCR ratios.

So, if you build a dedicated carrier and arm it very lightly, but include good defenses, you will pay less 'premium' on your Fighters than if you put them on all your main warships.

Obviously then the 'optimal' way to field Fighters is basically a 'box' in space that has nearly nil for weapons or specials.

We dont bother with that, but we do tend to use dedicated carriers as 1) it makes 'naval sense' to do it that way and 2) its cheaper.

Re: Thoughts behind the fighter vs. Shields rules

Not to mention avoids the 'designed to do all things but none of them well' situations. wink