• Registered: 2009-01-20
  • Posts: 7

Topic: Fleet Composition - Escorts

I have often joked that starship combat games are either Trafalgar, Jutland or Midway, depending on what they try to emulate.

Out of the box, Starmada is pretty solidly in the Jutland camp, but there's a bit of a problem with that.  Historically, fleet composition and tactics is determined by the weapons technology available.  The reason why Jutland-era battleships needed escorts in the first place was the homing torpedo - a single cheap torpedo could sink a very expensive battleship, and could be carried by fast, nimble, equally cheap small craft.  Destroyers (nee torpedo boat destroyers) only exist for the explicit purpose of keeping torpedo boats beyond torpedo range from the battleships.

In Starmada, there's no such shipkiller weapon, although it might be possible to build one - under SAE I created a PoC using the custom Seeker flight rules  that could do a fair job of at least severely damaging a battleship-sized ship.  I haven't tried under the new Seeker rules.  Regardless, in Starmada you can still shoot down Seekers; there was no way to intercept a torpedo.

Even if you assume that fighters fill this role, the best defense against fighters in Starmada is other fighters, and now we've got Midway instead of Jutland.

So given all this, to people who have created their own force lists &c. - what purpose do escorts serve in your fleets?  Are they protecting the capital ships from anything?  If so, what?  What reason would there be for a navy in your setting to build anything smaller than a light cruiser?

  • Registered: 2009-01-20
  • Posts: 7

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

I hacked this together quickly: Modulating makes them quite nasty.  A single torpedo hit can do significant damage to an Indomitable Battleship; two are likely to destroy it.

Hull: 1
Engines: 6-3
Weapons: 1-1
Shields: 0-0 
---
Torpedo | G []O // (1)
   MA 8 | 2x5+/2/2 (Cts/Exp/Knt/Mdl)
  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,575

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

I don't know that your premise is completely sound -- destroyers may have initially been developed to ward off torpedo boats, but they don't "only exist" because of that role. Frankly, TBs had been deprecated long before Jutland; by 1916 destroyers had already begun to serve their ASW function as well as fill the niche vacated by TBs and TBDs. In other words, they played many roles, just as they did in WW2 and beyond.

That being said, your question is a good one: what are escorts FOR?

I would posit that depends upon the overall makeup of your fleet -- but also (and probably more importantly) the makeup of your enemy's fleet. You can build escorts that are anti-fighter (using Defensive weapons and the Aegis Fire Control); you can build "torpedo boats" that mount heavy weapons; you can build anti-TB escorts with the speed necessary to keep enemy ship-killers at bay.

Frankly, I don't think there is a single answer to your question.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2009-01-20
  • Posts: 7

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

mj12games post_id=42069 time=1606326887 user_id=2 wrote:

TBs had been deprecated long before Jutland; by 1916 destroyers had already begun to serve their ASW function

That merely proves my point, though: a submarine is just a torpedo boat you can't see coming and can't easily intercept.  Destroyers are still serving the same function: keep the torpedoes away
from the big expensive battleships.

That being said, your question is a good one: what are escorts FOR? I would posit that depends upon the overall makeup of your fleet -- but also (and probably more importantly) the makeup of your enemy's fleet.

I would posit it entirely depends on the makeup of your enemy's fleet.  Specifically, absent the existence of a cheap, hard-to-intercept but relatively short-range shipkilling weapon there's no need for escorts as long as economy of scale is a thing.  We're back to Trafalgar where you build the biggest ships of the line you can.

Frankly, I don't think there is a single answer to your question.

I wasn't seeking one - a single one, anyway.  I was asking the people who write up force lists what their escorts are screening the capital ships from, and whether that role is better served by escorts or just beefier battleships.  Of course it's going to be setting dependent;  I've just seen lots of force lists that follow the Jutland model but never include anything like a torpedo delivery unit.

I generally play campaign games where player-driven R&D results in new unit and weapon designs and it's fairly common that unless there are other cost factors that make building larger units more expensive than the same CR value of smaller units, they'll build bigger units and load them down with better defenses and anti-fighter/seeker weaponry because that's always more combat effective than screening units.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,575

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

Fair. Certainly your opponents' fleet -- or at least the likely nature of the threats to your heavy hitters -- is the most important consideration.

I am reminded of the opening scene of Star Blazers/Space Battleship Yamato, in which the destroyer Yukikaze sacrifices herself to allow Captain Okita's battleship to get away. I wonder how that role would be simulated in Starmada?

In the Imperial Skies game, any friendly ship within 4" of the target may spend a command point to "siphon" a certain amount of damage from incoming weapons fire. Something similar would give escorts a clear role to play.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

For me - if escorts don't have a rule that they can block LOS for an enemy ship firing through their hex (or a nearby hex if you have a powerful enough system), there isn't much of a point of having small escorts.

  • Registered: 2021-01-02
  • Posts: 1

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

Ship size should also depend on the mission. Wait, mission? Yes, the mission the ship is fulfilling. Because you don't also have to contend with foreign empires.   Even at Trafalga, you had Frigates, Sloops, Third rates, and Second rates. Because you don't just have an enemy fleet to contend with and sending a superheavy battleship of the Deathshadow class after a group of pirates that barely can cobble a CA and CV together with a few dragon and longships makes no sense.

Also, what is the background of the universe you are playing? Even in Star Trek and Star Wars you had the Blockade Runner and the Nebulaon Frigate alongside the Imperator class Star Destroyer.  Who here can forget the Defiant and Miranda class serving alongside the Enterprise and Excelsior class. Why do escorts exist? Because you sometimes need a small ship to do a small job?   A fleet needs eyes and ears to extend its sensor net. Sometimes that requires a ship that can be sacrificed. Anti-piracy patrol. Lastly the bane of us all COST.  What sort of budget do you have? Do you want 5 superships to cover your empire or will two dozen ships half the size be able to respond to threats better?

  • Registered: 2005-11-02
  • Posts: 130

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

Don't forget empires are big, you can't build a hundred battleships to send to every little problem your empire or federation may have to deal with. You need fast scouts and explorer craft for the outer fringes. You also need frigates and destroyers to fend off pirates or smaller annoyances. When a larger battle is offered you need everything you have so the destroyer is there too. In the larger battles you can send your destroyer escorts to the fringes of battle and harass from the sides or rear while your bigger ships give battle on the main front. I've played games where my opponent has a bunch of bigger ships, so I break off a few destroyer escorts to their flank and my esteemed opponent will break off a couple of his big ships to deal with them. Now my main force has less ships to deal with while my escorts may get hammered, I now have an advantage in tonnage in the main battle.

  • Registered: 2009-01-20
  • Posts: 7

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

the destroyer Yukikaze sacrifices herself to allow Captain Okita's battleship to get away

may spend a command point to "siphon" a certain amount of damage from incoming weapons fire

I like these options, but Starmada being mostly simulationist I'm at a loss as to how the mechanics would work (which no doubt why I am not a world-famous celebrity game designer).  I know Starmada can model AEGIS cruisers but again that presumes the existence of fighters/torpedoes.

Do you want 5 superships to cover your empire

you can't build a hundred battleships to send to every little problem

Guys, I never said "build nothing but battleships", I said:

What reason would there be for a navy in your setting to build anything smaller than a light cruiser?

Destroyers and other small escorts are generally eggshells with hammers, but the hammer is the torpedoes I was originally talking about.

I break off a few destroyer escorts to their flank and my esteemed opponent will break off a couple of his big ships to deal with them

This I find interesting, because it implies that the battleships can't simply stay where they are and swat the DEs from a distance.  My impression of Starmada designs is that range tends to far outstrip engine ratings as a general rule.  Would you mind posting stats for some of these ships?

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Fleet Composition - Escorts

dream4 post_id=42066 time=1606283367 user_id=1012 wrote:

I have often joked that starship combat games are either Trafalgar, Jutland or Midway, depending on what they try to emulate.

Out of the box, Starmada is pretty solidly in the Jutland camp, but there's a bit of a problem with that.  Historically, fleet composition and tactics is determined by the weapons technology available.  The reason why Jutland-era battleships needed escorts in the first place was the homing torpedo - a single cheap torpedo could sink a very expensive battleship, and could be carried by fast, nimble, equally cheap small craft.  Destroyers (nee torpedo boat destroyers) only exist for the explicit purpose of keeping torpedo boats beyond torpedo range from the battleships.

In Starmada, there's no such shipkiller weapon, although it might be possible to build one - under SAE I created a PoC using the custom Seeker flight rules  that could do a fair job of at least severely damaging a battleship-sized ship.  I haven't tried under the new Seeker rules.  Regardless, in Starmada you can still shoot down Seekers; there was no way to intercept a torpedo.

Even if you assume that fighters fill this role, the best defense against fighters in Starmada is other fighters, and now we've got Midway instead of Jutland.

So given all this, to people who have created their own force lists &c. - what purpose do escorts serve in your fleets?  Are they protecting the capital ships from anything?  If so, what?  What reason would there be for a navy in your setting to build anything smaller than a light cruiser?

I agree with your thoughts. Keeping away from the economic reasons for including smaller ships (not strictly escorts), a lot of it comes down to your opponent or if you are so inclined, your setting. if you are playing in a setting or perhaps a conversion that has escorts (whether against fighters, missiles, etc)...well...your Starmada fleet should have them. "In Universe" there can be tons of justification for Escort type ships. I personally have always preferred this model to the Min-Max style, but everyone has different routes to their fun.  Once you get into free-design based games, I can see opportunities to use cheap, small Aegis/point defense/defensive battery equipped ships that operate as an anti-fighter shell around a more powerful unit, though I've never trotted one out myself.

In the last scratch project (non-conversion) I did the primary threat was from long-range seeker fire, which for all the parties ignored shields, and were real sledghammers. Escorts were like pre-WWI Torpedo Boat Destroyers- point defenses/defensive guns and/or flares to thicken the defenses of a larger ship, plus expendable seekers to harass the enemy if the opportunity should arise. Because of my preference, there were off-screen reasons for the forces available to each faction, so most battles I set up were more skirmish than fleet action- so escort types were pretty common.

Cheers,
Erik