Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Could you be a little more specific please. Which spreadsheet version? are you using Excel or OpenOffice 2.0? I could not duplicate the error.

When you say "copy" the Template, are you renaming the copy? That would probably upset it.
All of the pages in the spreadsheet are linked, so just putting the Template in a new spreadsheet will cause all sorts of errors.

You could have a spreadsheet for each ship (.ods files are much smaller than Excel ones), saving a copy of the full spreadsheet as the name of each ship, after completing the Nation sheet.
I have found that you can copy the Template, putting the copy in front of the last, several times without error. Keeping the copies as Template_2, Template_3 etc.

Hope this helps

Paul

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

I'm running in Open Office.  I'm using version 7 of the sheet.

I went to the tab at the bottom and did "Move/Copy Sheet" or something like that.  On the dialog I selected the Copy button, and told it to put the new one at the end of the list.  I think I've tried it with and without renaming that sheet.

This was on my Win XP computer at home.  I just tried in on my Linux system at work, and it didn't open it at all--I don't think I'm up to date on versions there.

I'll try again at home later.  But if you copy the sheet to Template_*, and do it a different way than I described, please give me your step-by-steps.

When I first tried this in Excel when the shipyard first came out, I was able to copy templates.  I'd like for the Nation information to be in one place.

Thanks,
andy

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Andy,

Ok, I found that this problem happens if the second template is placed after the first.
Solution:-
Go to Template sheet.
On the Edit Menu choose Sheet/(Move/Copy)
Highlight "Insert before Template",
Tick copy box & ok.

Repeat as many times as needed so long as the copies are before the first Template. You can do this before or after filling in the Nation sheet.

Paul

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Yep, that did it, thanks.

andy

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

So if I copy the template for each ship (all within the same document), how do I print the Starmada sheet for each one?  It seems to point just to the Template sheet.  Can I easily redirect it to each of my ships?

Thanks,
andy

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Downloads updated.

Andy,
Go to the starmada sheet and copy it as before (Before present one).
On Starmada_2 sheet, go to Edit/Find & Replace.
Find all "Template", Replace all with "Template_2".
This will now match your second template.
Repeat changing each Starmada_(x) to match each Template_(x) sheet.
You can also do this with the List sheet (IF needed).
Print each Starmada sheet as needed.
Paul

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Thanks again.

I'm computer literate, but not very familiar with spreadsheets.  Is there a convenient way to put the things I've entered into an old sheet (the nation description, some ships) into the new version?

Also, is there a quick way to replace the gun SU calculation ((R+1)PD) with (RPD + R), to play around with the difference?  I figured out how to do it for a particular line, but what about all weapons?

Thanks,
andy

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Andy,
I am no expert, it just seemed that nobody was giving answers to problems ( and things that people wanted ) with this spreadsheet and I had just found Open Office so I treated it as a puzzle.

Using cut & paste you should be able to move the information on the Nation Sheet S9:AA24 without a problem. The ship templates may not work, I guess it would be down to which version they were from.

The gun SU calculation (On the Nation sheet?)
I assume that in the SU calculation you changed "(1+$O$9)*$P$9*$Q$9"
to "(($O$9*$P$9*$Q$9)+$O$9)"
Sorry, I think that the only way to do this is to change each weapon one line at a time. Even if you do it in the Find & Replace, change the 9 to (The next weapon line) each time.

Paul

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

andyskinner:

I have a 'revised' Shipyard sheet that has a changed RoF formula in it. It is not (RPD)+R because that causes other problems of its own, but a slightly more complicated formula that does exactly what the original (R+1)PD was intended to so...weight RoF more than the other two, but without unduly changing the base cost of weapons the way (RPD)+R does.

The sheet also makes similar incremental increases to any of the RoF increasing specials because under the same logic...anything that increases RoF is superior to anything that increases Pen or Dmg simply by virtue of the added AA capability (which again, is exactly why R is supposed to be valued higher in the original formula).

Finally, it includes OldnGrey's fix to the Stutterdrives and Shockwave so that they work correctly.

If you are interested, let me know and I'll post it up for you to piddle with. I honestly think its the closest thing we'll get to the 'spirit' or intent of the original formula.

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

I for one would be happy to see it - post away!

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Thanks, Paul, for fiddling with this thing.

Uncle Joe, I'd be interested in an explanation of what is wrong with (RPD)+R.  I was nervous about your suggestion with a .5 or two in it, but I'm using spreadsheets for everything, so it doesn't really matter.  smile

andy

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

andyskinner:

Here is a copy/paste of the relevant section of the email I sent to Daniel Kast concerning the current formula, the RPD+R formula, and the revised formula that we implemented. Hopefully this should explain why the RPD+R isnt really workable in the current design IMO.

Note that we've been using this modified spreadsheet now and it feels a LOT better. There are true decisions between upping RoF vs upping Pen/Dmg or just increasing the number of weapons on the ship...decisions that were not present with the original formula.

Here you go:

That said, as I'm sure your aware from the Forum that the base formula for the weapon cost is somewhat buggered. For a while, we just sort of ignored it and played for 'spirit of the rules', but after a few games, its become apparent that we needed to 'fix' the problem. We have some players that are more or less hardcore into design and some that are more casual and just throw whatever looks cool onto the ships and go from there. For the hardcore players, we have deliberately avoided trying to use 'optimized' weapons where possible, but it really cuts down on the options when you are avoiding using RoF (because it is, by FAR, the most efficient way to go in every way). The sticking points come when the casual players show up with ships that are 'accidentally' quite a bit better than the others simply because they plugged in a lot more higher RoF ships. The difference is very pronounced and even the casual players could see that certain ships were really MUCH more effective overall than others for roughly the same cost.

Ok, that gives the background. smile

I sat down with one of my more mathematically inclined (and excel skilled) friends and looked to 'solve' the problem. We think we have done so, but some of it requires the designer's original intent as well. So, here is what we've found and what we've surmised.

Ok, we understand that everything else equal, RoF is better to increase than PEN or DAM because it is more useful vs Fighters. We are implementing that with the theory that for ship to ship, there is little actual difference between a 3/1/1 weapon and a 1/1/3 weapon or a 1/3/1 weapon. There will be different 'flavors' from the three options, but total 'firepower'...ie, 'dice on target' will remain the same.

From that, lets assume we want to put 3 'dice on target'. Our options are a 3/1/1, a 1/1/3 (or 1/3/1), or 3 x 1/1/1 weapons. Under the current formula, the 3/1/1 provides a HUGE margin over the 1/1/3....the 1/1/3 is 50% more expensive (6 compared to 4) AND the 3/1/1 is 3x more effective vs Fighters. So you are paying less, but for quite a bit more capability (that is a 'double dip' in our opinion...you are not only paying less for the same capability, you are paying less for more). The 3x 1/1/1 option costs 50% more, but has the same AA capabilities. Its also slightly more survivable (there are more Battery hits on the latter ship, but not 3x more).

Also, under the basic formula, when dealing with a '1' RoF, you are never doing any good by increasing PEN or DMG. You are always better off simply putting more weapons on the ship. For example, a 1/2/2 puts out 4x as many dice on target as a 1/1/1, but cost exactly 4x as much SU and CR. So, having 4x 1/1/1 on your ship gives you the exact same ship-to-ship capability, but 4x the AA capability and is more survivable to boot....again, this is a major difference is capability between ships.

The same holds true as you go up the scale. Increasing RoF is economical...increasing the other stats results in diminishing returns vice just adding extra weapons.

Hopefully that was at least somewhat clear. smile I just wanted to demostrate just how far the deviation was between intended (RoF is more costly for more capability) and reality (RoF is less costly for more capability).

There have been a number of solutions proposed (including by me), but most dont really fix the problem. A few mitigate the problem, but it took a lot of futzing around with algebra to actually make a formula that we felt best imposes your original design intent without unhinging the rest of the game's mechanics (a very real danger when monkeying around with the foundations of the weapon costs).

We tried (R*P*D)+R first. It looks workable on the surface, but it causes other problems. For one thing, it means that the base weapons are too cheap overall, leading to way too much firepower compared to protection for ships. You cant do much to increase your defense, but this formula lets you pack on more weapons overall....considerably more in some cases. Also, it doesnt fix the 'break points' at 2/1/1 and 3/1/1. The cost for those options was still exactly 2x and 3x respectively of having equivalent 1/1/1s, but were more vulnerable.

The base formula we came up with is (R*P*D)+(3(R)+P+D)/5.

I know you have a mathematical bend to you, so I wont go through all the specifics, but what it does in the end is weight 'R' higher than P and D while not applying that multiplier completely across the larger weapons. The theory here is that a 3/3/3 weapon is still a total waste to fire at a fighter, so you should not be paying the same premium on the RoF going from 1/3/3 to 3/3/3 as going from 1/1/1 to 3/1/1. The simultaneous goal is to make sure that you are getting a substantial discount when employing a larger weapon than going with the equivalent number of 'dice on target' in smaller weapons. Again, this is to make sure that a 2/2/2 is more cost effective than 8x 1/1/1s because it is far worse vs Fighters and is far more vulnerable to be taken out completely (although this is dependent on the size of the ship, its always going to be present). So there has to be a reason to select a 2/2/2 over the 8x 1/1/1 and in our formula, that reason is about a 38% discount. That seems to be a good trade off. Similar trade-offs will occur evenly throughout the 27 combos of R/P/D. 

OK, that gives a great base to start from, but there is one final problem with it. Even though the current game's formula is flawed, it appears that the rest of the weapon multipliers and indeed, many of the calculations are predicated on weapons having that somewhat high inherent base cost. Using our forumla, weapons are still a little too cheap compared to what you have now (although RoF is properly weighted). So, to restore the situation, we've imposed a flat 20% increase in weapon costs. So, the final formula reads:

1.2*(R*P*D +(3(R)+P+D)/5)

This puts weapons back on par with current costs, but in the correct weightings. Its now more costly to put a 3/1/1 than a 1/1/3, but cheaper than going with 3x 1/1/1 (marginally). Again, the same will apply nearly evenly across the board, with the discount increasing as the weapons get bigger (and thus simultaneously more vulnerable to being taken out and and worse against Fighters).

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

That is a thing of beauty - thanks for working through it and posting the details.

I'll have to go in and modify each field in the spreadsheet with the new formula, right?

I haven't started to look into why the Stutterdrive doesn't work in the current version ... any tips there?

Cheers,

Christopher

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

FYI - I found and fixed the Shockwave and Stutterdrive problems, so no help needed there.

Your ROF formula works nicely - the effects are noticeable on high ROF weapons!

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

To save you the time, here is the spreadsheet that we modified.

Glad you like the changes. smile

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

I have been busy (and away) for a while -- work and real life gets in the way -- and you guys have done a great job of stewarding my original little design sheet!

Thanks guys!

It was always my intend for the Shipyard sheet to be an ever-growing, living document without any one "owner" of it. It should belong to the Starmada community. And right now, it appears that it does.

smile

I could not be happier!

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Okay I must have gone blind, but I can't find how to make weapons expendenble.

Con someone help me please? :oops:

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Expendable option is on the Special 1, 2 & 3 dropdown lists.

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Sorry to say its not I just re-checked its not there:
These are the entries in order....

Continuing Dmg
Dbl Range Mods
Extra Crew Casualties
Extra Hull Dmg
Halves Shields
Ignores Shields
Increased DMG
Increased PEN
Inverted Range Mods
Must Re-Roll PEN Dice
Must Re-Roll To-Hit Dice
No Hull Dmg
No Range Mods
Range-Based DMG
Range-Based PEN
Range-Based ROF
Repeating
Re-Rolls PEN Dice
Re-Rolls To-Hit Dice
Shield-Resonant
Variable DMG
Variable PEN
Variable ROF

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Sorry, you did not say what version you are using.

On K David Ladage's Original Shipyard v1.1 dated 4 Nov 2005, the expendable option is listed between Dbl Range Mods and Extra crew Casualties.

I have not removed it from the versions that I have posted.

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

If you are using the v2.3 version I posted, it no longer has Expendable as an option. It allowed for a lot of ridiculous weapon exploits and we had pulled it from the sheet so that all of our players were on the same page.

Sorry for any inconvenience. Its not hard to add back into that list though. Here is a copy that has Expendable back on it.

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Weired I could have sworn it was not in the V1.1 or the other one... 

Oh well thanks for the help
:oops:

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Updated with SU refecting Large or Small Fighter Bays.
A few other odds and ends added.
Check out the equipment.

Could we have an "official" yes or no on Uncle_Joe's weapon costing.

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

What do you mean by Official? Do you mean does MJXII support those changes? No, they dont. I submitted the spreadsheet and the formula, but it was thought to be a little on the too complex side. The official formula is still ((R+1)PD).

My solution is just there for people who want the intent of the original design, which is correct...R is more valuable than P or D. The formula presented in Starmada X incorrectly makes it less costly rather than more through a math error.

So no, its not, and likely wont be official. But as has been stated many times by the MJXII folks, its not like someone is going to come to your house and arrest you for not playing the official version.  smile

Re: Starmada X: Shipyard

Uncle_Joe wrote:

So no, its not, and likely wont be official. But as has been stated many times by the MJXII folks, its not like someone is going to come to your house and arrest you for not playing the official version.  smile

Actually... we have been in negotiations with the Men in Black...

big_smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com