Topic: ROF point-cost discussion

Thought I'd create a separate topic for this, since it seems to have taken over the Shipyard topic... big_smile

Anyway, I agree with those who believe there should be a 'tweak' -- for a game as mathematically-based as Starmada to have such a glaring hole in its formulae is unthinkable.

However, I'm not sold on the idea that the fix should be complicated-- which is why I haven't said anything official on the matter.

Suggestions are still welcomed.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

I am still not sure why a fix is needed.

It seems easily explainable why ROF is cheaper. There are two random elements before those dice translate to affecting a target.

Only 1 for PEN and 0 for DMG.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Taltos that logic is flawed. It should be reveresed if anything. In order for Dmg to even come into play, the other two rolls must succeed. That means thats its possible to not even get your Dmg rolls, especially vs highly shielded ships or with inaccurate weapons.

Even that aside, RoF is better against Fighters...plain and simple. If we assume that ship to ship, a 3/1/1 is the same as a 1/1/3, then the ONLY difference is usefulness vs Fighters. And the 3/1/1 has a clear advantage here (200%). Now add in the fact that is not only better, but a heck of a lot cheaper and you can see the problems. Ignoring the effects vs Fighters completely, dont you think its problematic that one configuration of the weapon is 50% more expensive for essentially the exact same effect?

Another issue that crops up with the current formula is that it rarely makes ANY sense to increase Pen or Dmg on weapons without first increasing RoF. If you are going to have a 1 RoF, you are better off going with multiple weapons rather than increasing Pen or Dmg. (ie, a 1/1/3 weapon is worse than 3 1/1/1 weapons for the same cost).

Any which way you slice it, the current formula buggers up the CR in a rather large fashion. Yes, if everyone playing 'conforms' to a standard and designs ships with roughly equal distribution of RoF vs Pen or Dmg then it works out, but that is defeating the whole purpose of having CR in the first place.

Finally, if a fix is going to be done, I'd urge it to be a real fix, and not a half measure. If you dont like the slightly more complicated formula, I'd recommend trying to come up with something yourself that fixes the problem completely rather than simply changing the problem areas (like RPD+R will do). The formula I posted is slightly more complex, but it does exactly what was intended by the original formula while maintaining balance throughout all the weapon combos.

YMMV

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

I say leave it.

Honestly, I don't care if you say its a glaring weakness--I don't. The current rules are fine as-is. If you want to find a way to get more firepower for your ships, you will. Simple as that. For instance, how about this weapon I've toyed with?

Ion Blaster

Range: 18, TH: 3+, 1/1/3, Ignores Shields, Increased Damage, Extra Hull Damage

This is a cheesy weapon. If you don't have ionic shields, then one good PEN roll with this weapon, and your ship has more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese.

Heres a possible solution:

Weapons with a ROF of 3 may not have a range that exceeds 9. Fluff could say that having such a number of weapons that the sheer energy involved to attack ships above range 9 would shatter the vessel. Thus giving a solution where high ROF weapons are primarily used for fighters.

As far as Im concerned, there is no flaw.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

I say leave it.

I agree with murtalianconfederacy: leave it be.

However, there is a flaw in the formula smile.

However, in the hundreds of Starmada games I've playe, it has made little to no difference in the outcome of the game.

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

Weapons with a ROF of 3 may not have a range that exceeds 9. Fluff could say that having such a number of weapons that the sheer energy involved to attack ships above range 9 would shatter the vessel. Thus giving a solution where high ROF weapons are primarily used for fighters.

As far as Im concerned, there is no flaw.

Addressing that flaw in the system with the range cap is both admitting that the flaw changes the outcome of battle and forcing an uncomfortable arbitrariness about the construction system.

Uncle_Joe: can you come up with a 1000pt scenario using current Starmada: X rules for ship construction that effectively demonstrates that 3/1/1 weapons and 1/1/3 weapons are inherently different during play?  A good scenaro will have balanced fleets and no cheese (other than the 3/1/1 weapon smile)

If you can, and I can play that scenario and see the difference, then I will admit the flaw in the math makes a difference. You will find no greater advocate of the-math-flaw-makes-a-difference camp than.

I reiterate: The flaw exists, and, as far as I'm concerned has made no difference to date.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Uncle_Joe wrote:

Taltos that logic is flawed. It should be reveresed if anything. In order for Dmg to even come into play, the other two rolls must succeed. That means thats its possible to not even get your Dmg rolls, especially vs highly shielded ships or with inaccurate weapons.

Au contraire, it is your logic that is flawed.  lol

Seriously, I take your point. And it makes some sense.

Yet, to my mind at the point of picking up the DMG dice - no matter what has happened before - they are not random. If I have 'DMG 3' that is 3 dice that are guaranteed to do something to the ship. This is where the rubber hits the road for the weapon's results.

OK, I do have to get the other dice to work first... but at best this makes them equal in value. Picking up ROF dice and they "may" get through, and after rolling those then what got through becomes PEN which "may" get through...

But when it is all said and done, I agree with jimbeau:

jimbeau wrote:

...there is a flaw in the formula smile.

However, in the hundreds of Starmada games I've playe, it has made little to no difference in the outcome of the game.

Or at least no difference that I can claim to have noticed.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

It isn't important to me whether an official change is made.  Starmada "belongs" to the people who have played and loved it for a while more than it does to me, someone who is still trying it out to see how it feels compared to another game I like a lot (Full Thrust).

However, I do think I'd like to play with a tweak, and I'd like to have people that want the tweak agree on what it should be.  It is nice, if you want a house rule, to use a commonly accepted one.  ("Common" meaning among those who care about this particular aspect.)


As soon as I started designing ships, I started noticing that 1/1/3 weapons cost more than 3/1/1.  I thought they should be the same (I learned about fighters later).  The expected number of damage dice being rolled is (I think) R*(P(6-S)/6)*D (S is the target's shields), so scaling R, P, or D in the basic case only really has the effect of changing the distribution of hits.  (Higher R and lower D gives more even spread of possible number of damage dice rolled.  Lower R and higher D gives more all or nothing results.  P is somewhere in the middle.)  I was thinking of these things, trying to figure out what the different stats were really supposed to do.

So that's why I'm posting tables showing point costs for different suggestions.  I would like to help agree on a simple alternative point cost.  Whether that is official or not doesn't matter much.

andy

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

andyskinner wrote:

It isn't important to me whether an official change is made.  Starmada "belongs" to the people who have played and loved it for a while more than it does to me, someone who is still trying it out to see how it feels compared to another game I like a lot (Full Thrust).

However, I do think I'd like to play with a tweak, and I'd like to have people that want the tweak agree on what it should be.  It is nice, if you want a house rule, to use a commonly accepted one.  ("Common" meaning among those who care about this particular aspect.)

Logical and sound, and on that front I can agree completely.

andyskinner wrote:

So that's why I'm posting tables showing point costs for different suggestions.  I would like to help agree on a simple alternative point cost.  Whether that is official or not doesn't matter much.

and there, while I can help, I would feel better served to leave it to Dan and the more mathematically inclined. On the surface, though, your solution seems valid.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Ok,

Last night, I decided to put this to the test. I created 4 battlecruisers (2 for each side) and added 4 flights of fighters per side. The BCs were designed exclusively for combat with the same shields and movement, no science labs, ect.... and the only difference was one side which had 3/1/1 weapons, and the other which had some 1/1/1 and a couple big 1/1/3 weapons each.......

The fighters were long range, and hyperspaced in with the ships (no hangers on the ships themselves)

I also made sure that the ranges were the same, the to-hits were the same, ect.
The only thing that differed sligtly was the number of short range guns.... instead of managing 3  1/1/1 guns for every 3/1/1.... the ratio was more like 2.4 to 1.... which did seem to give the high rof weapons an advantage.

All weapons were 4+ to hit, and the big guns were  18 range, the small guns were 9 ( high ROF ship had it's weapons divided into two categories...... the same ranges vs. number of weapons)

In the end, I didn't find that much of a difference. One flight of fighters got chewed up during the game.... one of the hight rof ships used two of it's cannons on the fighter flight and managed to hit and destroy 4 of the 6 fighters in one turn...... but I found that with the fighters moving first, and firing first, they were able to be effective against the ships, even with the high rof.... and I also found one other interesting thing that is not being considered with all of these charts and tables........

Ships with the high rof weapons tend to have fewer overall weapons..... and when one takes a hit, you lose 3 dice to hit with....
Losing on 3/1/1 weapon is worse than losing one 1/1/1 weapon.
For that matter, on turn 3, 2 wings of fighters (one with only 2 fighters left) managed to swoop in, and pretty much strip away one whole bay of weapons in one turn..... and because they were fighters, this was before the ship with the high rof could fire back. And when it came time for the return fire... there wasn't a whole lot left to fire with.......

Honestly... the one issue that came up was something totally different... due to the way that hit tables are.... I had a range 9 1/1/1 small laser take out a hull hit, an engine hit, a weapon hit, and the hyperdrive on one of the other battlecruisers..... I'd be inclined to set a rule that you may only take out one item per dice that hits...... I.E. you have a weapon 1/1/1 and it hits, penetrates and then rolls for damage and gets the above location.... the defending player gets to choose whether it's a hull hit, a weapon hit, an engine hit, or finally, the hyperdrive.......

It would make the big weapons nasty by giving they the chance to actually do a lot of damage at once, while easing down the destructive power of high rof weapons.... maybe we can offer this instead of changing the formula for the weapons.

John

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Taltos, I don't have a specifc solution myself.  I offered RPD+R when I first ran into the problem.  Uncle Joe has been championing something that I think is a bit complex, but tries to keep the overall values at the same scale as current (so you don't have to rebalance).  I'd like to see something that does the trick but isn't complex (even though I doubt I'll create ships by hand).

John, you mention that high ROF would have fewer weapons.  Wouldn't that be even more so with high PEN or DMG, since they cost more (even though they don't have the advantages that ROF has)?

I didn't follow your suggestion about only allowing one thing to be destroyed per die that hits.  Do you mean that passes the to-hit roll, making ROF even more important?  If you mean per die that actually makes a damage roll (what I think you mean), I don't think that makes any distinction between high ROF and high DMG or PEN.  They all make the same expected number of damage rolls, just with a different spread. What am I missing?


I do like tables (though I prefer visualization--I suppose I could plot these things instead) to give a feel for what the possibilities are.  Earlier I posted a table showing the difference in a weapon's value with the different formulae.  Here's one showing some scaling values--how much they differ from the current rule.  It may show some of what Uncle Joe's concern is.

k = current SU, (R+1)PD
a: (RPD+R) / k
b: (R(P+.5)(D+.5))/k (UJ's original proposal)
c: (1.2(RPD + (3R + P + D)/5))/k (UJ's current proposal)
R  P  D   a      b       c
1  1  1:  1.0,  1.13,  1.2
1  1  2:  0.75, 0.94,  0.96
1  1  3:  0.67, 0.88,  0.88
1  2  1:  0.75, 0.94,  0.96
1  2  2:  0.63, 0.78,  0.81
1  2  3:  0.58, 0.73,  0.76
1  3  1:  0.67, 0.88,  0.88
1  3  2:  0.58, 0.73,  0.76
1  3  3:  0.56, 0.68,  0.72
2  1  1:  1.33, 1.5,   1.44
2  1  2:  1.0,  1.25,  1.16
2  1  3:  0.89, 1.17,  1.067
2  2  1:  1.0,  1.25,  1.16
2  2  2:  0.83, 1.042, 1.0
2  2  3:  0.78, 0.97,  0.95
2  3  1:  0.89, 1.17,  1.067
2  3  2:  0.78, 0.97,  0.95
2  3  3:  0.74, 0.91,  0.91
3  1  1:  1.5,  1.69,  1.56
3  1  2:  1.13, 1.41,  1.26
3  1  3:  1.0,  1.31,  1.16
3  2  1:  1.13, 1.41,  1.26
3  2  2:  0.94, 1.17,  1.095
3  2  3:  0.88, 1.094, 1.04
3  3  1:  1.0,  1.31,  1.16
3  3  2:  0.88, 1.094, 1.04
3  3  3:  0.83, 1.021, 1.0

UJ's concern with (RPD + R) is (I think) that it mostly scales point values down, while defenses were balanced with the current rules.

Uncle Joe, your original R(P+.5)(D+.5) still seems a bit complex to me, but not as much as your current.  But the results seem very similar.  Is the current one different enough to make it worth the extra complexity?

Dan, is there a complexity threshold we're looking for?  smile  Are comparisons of different equations useful to you?

andy

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

andyskinner wrote:

Taltos, I don't have a specifc solution myself.  I offered RPD+R when I first ran into the problem.  Uncle Joe has been championing something that I think is a bit complex, but tries to keep the overall values at the same scale as current (so you don't have to rebalance).
andy

Oops, sorry. I mis-took the conversation streams.  :oops:

Tho I would champion any solution that was simpler (even if I wouldn't use it myself) in keeping with the Starmada mantra.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Ok, when I mentioned the weapons being cheaper, I was looking at the range 9 small weapons, and comparing prices for the high rof's vs. the 1/1/1 support weapons.

To get the same number of dice in an arc, I ended up with fewer high rof weapons overall......


Also, a weapon with rof 3 is more or less, 3 seperate weapons on one mount (or rapid fire, ect... but still the equivelent of 3 rof1 weapons). One hit to that weapon bank kills the equivelent of  3 weapons, where one hit on a bank of 1/1/1   weapons only kills one die.....  Hence you get more survivability out of smaller single shot weapons.




For my remark on damage, I'll see if I can explain it better.

As my ships closed with each other, one of my range 9 1/1/1 weapons hit the other ship. The hit penetrated on a 6 and did damage. When I rolled to see what was hit, I lost the following items.... 1 hull, 1 engine, 1 weapon from battery a, and the hyperdrive...... basically 4 pieces of equipment off of 1 die of damage.

What I was suggesting, was having the damage done equal the number of die rolled.... basically, I would have chosen one of those pieces of equipment to lose....

a weapon with rof 3 and pen 1 dmg 1 that hits with all 2 hits, and Penetrates with 1 (average rolls....) so only rolls 1 die for damage, gets one piece of equipment.
While another weapon with rof 1, pen 2 dmg, 2 hits and penetrates with both die and rolls 4 damage dice, each claiming one piece of equipment....

To me, and this is my opinion, it would even out the overall damage between the weapons, and would also boost the abilities of the spinal mount weapons. It also would make some of the smaller ships more survivable, as I actually have seen my hull 2 ships destroyed in one hit from a weapon that was 2/1/1..... They had an engine of 8 so when hit, both die hit, both penetrated, and the first hit did 1 hull, 1 weapon a (all the weapons) and 3 engine hits........
the second hit destroyed 1 hull (killing the ship) 2 engine hits, and a shield hit...... I could have instead allowed those two hits to take engines, or maybe a shield and an engine, and kept the ship for another turn or two..... also, that makes extra hull damage on a weapon a real power to be feared on the field.....

This way, the smaller ships have a lot of real value in the game, and you don't keep seeing nothing but heavy battlecruisers running around.

Case in point, I was looking at the random fleet tables, and noted that you don't see anything at or over a 1000 points without rolling quite high on the large fleet table. I know that I built a hull 8 carrier once, with all of the tech levels at 0 and it cost 378 points. With a fleet of 600 to 700 points, I wouldn't be able to put much else out on the board, and a hull 8 ship won't last long......

I personally like the idea of a 2 to 4 hour game.... where most of the games I have been running or playing have been lasting only 1 - 2 hours.....

I had one with my fiance, and due to the dice rolling good to hit and pen numbers, the whole game only lasted 38 minutes.... where we were hoping to make an afternoon of it........

I hope that this explains it better....

John

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

I hate replying to myself... but had a further idea... maybe each damage die can get an equal number of pieces of equipment equal to the pen value...... that would encourage people to go for a higher pen value to go along with things.... a high rate of fire with high pen would rapidly raise the cost of the weapon enough that it would make the players have to choose, and also inspire players to have more than 3/1/1 weapons with mods.....

I don't want to make the high rate of fire more expensive, because it does make sense to have the weapon for anti-fighter usage, and to simulate large multi-barrel turrets (star blazers Yamato is a good example). I just want to encourage people to use the full range of available weapon options on the field......

John

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

I think if a solution is to be found, the fiurst thing that needs to happen is to simply raise the level of impact that ROF has on the formula. Once that is done, I think you could just about leave it alone. IN other words, what I am suggesting is this:

2RPD

This maps out to:

                  CURRENT    
 R     P     D    (R+1)PD      2RPD
===   ===   ===   =======   =======
 1     1     1       2.00      2.00 
 1     1     2       4.00      4.00 
 1     1     3       6.00      6.00 
 1     2     1       4.00      4.00 
 1     2     2       8.00      8.00 
 1     2     3      12.00     12.00
 1     3     1       6.00      6.00 
 1     3     2      12.00     12.00
 1     3     3      18.00     18.00
 
 2     1     1       3.00      4.00 
 2     1     2       6.00      8.00 
 2     1     3       9.00     12.00
 2     2     1       6.00      8.00 
 2     2     2      12.00     16.00
 2     2     3      18.00     24.00
 2     3     1       9.00     12.00
 2     3     2      18.00     24.00
 2     3     3      27.00     36.00
 
 3     1     1       4.00      6.00 
 3     1     2       8.00     12.00
 3     1     3      12.00     18.00
 3     2     1       8.00     12.00
 3     2     2      16.00     24.00
 3     2     3      24.00     36.00
 3     3     1      12.00     18.00
 3     3     2      24.00     36.00
 3     3     3      36.00     54.00

Granted, this makes the value of some ships significantly higher... but I think that it is fair to do so.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

God, but I'm stupid...

Okay, so the problem has been that, although the intent of adding +1 to R was to make it more expensive than P and D, the result was to make increases to P and D proportionally more expensive.

For example, a 1/1/1 weapon costs 2; increasing R to 3 makes the value 4 (a 100% increase). But increasing either P or D to 3 makes the value 6 (a 200% increase).

Considering this, the answer has been staring me in the face-- just add +1 to P and D, and divide the final product by 2.

Thus, a 1/1/1 weapon still costs 2 (1 x 2 x 2 / 2).

However, making R 3 results in 6 (a 200% increase), while making either P or D 3 results in 4 (a 100% increase).

Duh. I am so dense sometimes.

Any potential problems with this?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Actually, that chart looks pretty good.... we'll have to see what Dan makes of all of this......LOL

I've been looking a whole lot of stuff over on the different ship designs.


John

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

KDLadage wrote:

I think if a solution is to be found, the fiurst thing that needs to happen is to simply raise the level of impact that ROF has on the formula. Once that is done, I think you could just about leave it alone. IN other words, what I am suggesting is this:

2RPD

This actually has no effect whatsoever, except to double the cost of every weapon.

For example, a 1/1/1 weapon costs 2.

A 3/1/1 weapon costs 6. But then so does a 1/3/1 and a 1/1/3.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Dan, your solution does this to the numbers

       old way new dan %diff
1 1 1    2     2         100.00%
1 1 2    4     3          75.00%
1 1 3    6     4          66.67%
1 2 1    4     3          75.00%
1 2 2    8    4.5        56.25%
1 2 3    12    6          50.00%
1 3 1    6     4          66.67%
1 3 2    12    6          50.00%
1 3 3    18    8          44.44%
2 1 1    3     4         133.33%
2 1 2    6     6         100.00%
2 1 3    9     8          88.89%
2 2 1    6     6         100.00%
2 2 2    12     9         75.00%
2 2 3    18    12         66.67%
2 3 1    9     8          88.89%
2 3 2    18    12         66.67%
2 3 3    27    16         59.26%
3 1 1    4     6         150.00%
3 1 2    8     9         112.50%
3 1 3    12    12       100.00%
3 2 1    8     9         112.50%
3 2 2    16    13.5      84.38%
3 2 3    24    18         75.00%
3 3 1    12    12       100.00%
3 3 2    24    18         75.00%
3 3 3    36    24         66.67%

Is that what you wanted?

Or did I make yet another idiotic mistake in the points formula?

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

A little hard to follow as it's written...took me a second to see that the cost of 2 was separate from the (1x2x2/2)....:) 

Seems easy enough after that....

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

jimbeau wrote:

Dan, your solution does this to the numbers

Is that what you wanted?

Or did I make yet another idiotic mistake in the points formula?

No, that's what I wanted. And considering that on average it's going to result in weapons 83% of their existing values, it's a decent compromise.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

I was looking at the latest chart, and the rof 2 weapons only cost 25% more than in the book method of factoring, and the rof 3 weapons only 50% more.... but it leaves the one fact out, that a ship with rof 3 weapons is more vulnerable to return fire over ships with multiple rof 1 weapons......

Lets say that your ship has two rof 3 weapons firing into weapon arc A.
And my ship has 6 rof 1 weapons in my arc A.

We both roll 6 dice to hit each other (we're both in each other's A arc) and we both have the same 4+ targeting....... and at the same range.... and same shield rating.) We both hit each other, and after all is said and done, we get 1 damage through, and we both get the exact same result, a weapon bank hit.......

Next turn, I still get 5 dice to roll against you, but you are down to 3 dice to return on me.... and should we get the same results, I will have 4 dice, and you will have none........

When all is said and done, a rof 3 weapon is a bigger loss to your capability than a rof 1 weapon, if all other factors are equal......  Since capital ship fire is simultaneous, and fighters fire first, I don't see where the high rof weapons are that deadly. By the law of averages, you are going to lose them fast enough to worry about fairly quickly, and if I do to you what my fiance did to me Saturday, you are going to really have it rough.

We decided to play one of the battles from my Starlancer computer game.....

As a rule for that session, fighters did not do hull damage.....   To simulate the flack guns on some of the capital ships, I created a batch of range 3 weapons that were 3/1/1. She managed to rush 4 flights of fighters in on me while I was pounding it out with one of her capital ships...... and the next thing I knew, my ship didn't have those nice nifty flak guns..... and it wouldn't have mattered if they were the original range 9 that I had planned, because she used the fighter version that had the weapon range of 2 and fast.... giving them a 12 movement. Basically, they had a 28 inch circle of attack (we don't use hexes at the moment, we play on the living room floor (really short carpet) and run 2 inches to the "hex" // movement point.) my range 18 heavy guns reach out 36 inches on the floor.......

Anyways, she massed the wings of fighters, and then moved her Yamato battle cruiser in on me.... while I was reacting to it, she rushed the fighters in, and because they shoot first.... stripped off my flak guns, and crippled my shields and engines........ Unfortunately, I had sent my fighters to take down her gunboats (Hull 2 ships with enough punch and speed to give me fits) and they were not in position to help much.......

As a final note.... one of our house rules is that when fighters are dogfighting, any shots into their hex are randomized against both sides...... on the principle that with the fighters swirling around, it's too hard to target individual ones.  She used one flight to dogfight one of mine, and then did something truly sneaky.....LOL.  Per the rules, only one flight from either side can dogfight.... so she flew her second wing through the dogfight.... using my own dogfighting fighters as cover to make a run on my captital ships.....

Again, my high rof cannons didn't help, because she destroyed enough of them during the fighter phase to ruin my day. By the time I could fire, I only had one weapon capable of firing in the arc where her fighters were, and had to worry more about the enemy gunboats bearing down on me, rather than a single wing of fighters.........

Anyways.... to get back on topic (sorry all), she was able to score enough hits during each fighter phase, that she would destroy a bunch of my weapons before I could even fire....... Mostly due to single hits killing 3 dice from my chances to return damage.

John

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Seems to me John, that the risk of losing a higher proportional value of your firepower vs how hard you can potentially hit the target is the trade off in just that.   

wink  Time to make sure those weapon batteries are armored, eh? *chuckles*

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Considering this, the answer has been staring me in the face-- just add +1 to P and D, and divide the final product by 2.

Which is exactly what I was trying to get with the +.5 to each of those numbers (rather than +1 to each and then divide by 2).

And its very close the mark, but still leaves 'sticking points' as you can see by looking at andyskinner's post of the comparison. Its a far superior formula to the original, but my opinion was that if I was going to go in and 'fix' it, might as well fix it right for all the combos rather than still having various configurations that are still superior or inferior.

Since I'm using a spreadsheet, complexity of the formula didnt bother me a whit. I would wager that anyone who is designing ships is doing it on a spreadsheet these days, so I wouldnt be overly worried about keeping the formula simple. Anyone who is going to do it by hand can easily hand a little bit of formula compication... wink

Jimbeau:

It doesnt need a specific scenario to see it. Just design one fleet with all 3/1/1 weapons and another with all 1/1/3 weapons (everything else identical). Now fight it out a few times. You'll see that the 3/1/1 will always have the advantage over time (over time being key here...obviously luck is going to play a role, even with one side clearly superior). Now add Fighters to the mix and watch the 3/1/1 fleet mop up. They have more weapons and those weapons are 3x as effective vs the Fighters...like I said, its a huge swing.

To be fair, that is probably THE largest swing you are likely to get. Most will fall somewhere in between. Is it enough to wreck the game? No, not really. Is it enough to invalidate CR as a balancing mechanism? I think so. It make the CR a false number which is worse than no number IMO because people THINK its balanced when its not.

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Nahuris wrote:

I was looking at the latest chart, and the rof 2 weapons only cost 25% more than in the book method of factoring, and the rof 3 weapons only 50% more.... but it leaves the one fact out, that a ship with rof 3 weapons is more vulnerable to return fire over ships with multiple rof 1 weapons......

Not exactly true.

The ship with multiple ROF-1 weapons is going to lose weapons faster than the one with fewer ROF-3 weapons, since weapons will show up more often on the damage chart.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: ROF point-cost discussion

Uncle_Joe wrote:

And its very close the mark, but still leaves 'sticking points' as you can see by looking at andyskinner's post of the comparison. Its a far superior formula to the original, but my opinion was that if I was going to go in and 'fix' it, might as well fix it right for all the combos rather than still having various configurations that are still superior or inferior.

Can you give me a specific example of a "sticking point"?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com