• Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Topic: Basic questions from a new player

Hi. I recently picked up these rules, and I am working my way through them. A couple of questions for now...

1. Commanders can join a standard unit. Does this then make the unit ad hoc? If the Commander then leaves, is this a unit split as per the normal rules? Does this mean that the unit which the Commander just left  is now ad hoc, or is it still a standard unit?

2. Does a unit on Maneuver/Sprint orders need to contact the closest enemy unit (as with the Maneuver/Charge order) or can it head and contact any unit in hand-to-hand?

Thanks. I am sure that I will have further questions as I progress through the rules.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

The way I see it...

CyberShadow wrote:

1. Commanders can join a standard unit. Does this then make the unit ad hoc? If the Commander then leaves, is this a unit split as per the normal rules? Does this mean that the unit which the Commander just left  is now ad hoc, or is it still a standard unit?

...ad hoc and standard unit designations are in effect before the game begins, they do not change during the game time. Commanders (and Heroes) joining and leaving units are an exception to the normal rules and do not effect the type of unit.

2. Does a unit on Maneuver/Sprint orders need to contact the closest enemy unit (as with the Maneuver/Charge order) or can it head and contact any unit in hand-to-hand?

Unless they are Elite quality, I would say yes (provided they do so in the first place).

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hi Cybershadow,

1. As stated by tnjrp, commanders do not affect unit status at all.  They can move freely about the table as they please and this does not affect anything other than total unit size.

2. Since this is not explicitly spelled out, I can see the confusion.  The intent of the rules is that only elite figures can pick and choose targets, so I agree with tnjrp.

-Demian

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: Basic questions from a new player

and the FAQ is updated

http://mj12games.com/faq/index.php/Category:Defiance

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Many thanks. One other question (for now):

I am a little confused by the movement over terrain modifiers. A model crossing medium terrain gets its movement rate reduced by half. Does this mean that a M4 model can then move a standard 2"? If so, and it then takes a move-fire-move action, are both movements affected? Also, does this modifier occur no matter how deep the terrain actually is that is being moved through?

Thanks again.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

A model crossing medium terrain gets its movement rate reduced by half. Does this mean that a M4 model can then move a standard 2"?

As I understand the terrain rules, as long as the model is in the terrain, the movement rate will be reduced. Before it enters or after it clears the terrain, the penalty does not apply. So the best way to think about this IMCO is that the terrain has an "extra cost" to cross. In order for the model to traverse, say, 1" (smaller distances might apply) of medium terrain, it needs to use 2" of it's profile movement allocation.

So in the move-fire-move case, if the M4 model was in medium terrain to start with, it would be able to move up to 1" before firing: half it's profile movement allocation of 4", halved again because of the terrain. Now assuming it had just cleared the terrain before firing, it could then move up to 2" more as this part of the movement is not reduced by the terrain.

This is a fairly basic approach in miniature games, in fact, although some companies (most notably GW) use a different model.

Also, does this modifier occur no matter how deep the terrain actually is that is being moved through?

Not quite sure what you are asking here. Maybe I answered it already?

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

The movement rules are slightly ambiguous, it does say on page 26 "Light terrain will reduce movement to 3/4 rate..... All modified movement rates should be rounded to the nearest half-inch.". It could be read as a modification to the movement stat, even though it is meant to refer to movement rate over that terrain by the inch.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hmm. Can't recall exactly how "movement rate" is defined in D:VG. Which would be a bit of a perquisite to judge the wording.

Regardless, I'm pretty certain the net effect should be as I outlined above.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

It does seem to be a little confusing (particularly for my aged brain!).

I agree that the 'normal' way of doing this is that light terrain is judged at double movement rate, medium at triple and heavy terrain at... four times. However, this is not how it is written.

So in the move-fire-move case, if the M4 model was in medium terrain to start with, it would be able to move up to 1" before firing: half it's profile movement allocation of 4", halved again because of the terrain. Now assuming it had just cleared the terrain before firing, it could then move up to 2" more as this part of the movement is not reduced by the terrain.

But this interpretation means that a model taking a move(terrain)-fire-move action would move further than a move(terrain)-fire action... even if it didnt actually want to fire and both models were crossing exactly the same terrain.

Not quite sure what you are asking here. Maybe I answered it already?

Just that, if a model moves and hits a 1/2" medium terrain feature, then its total movement may be halved (depending on the previous interpretation) to, say, 3". Does this mean that a model hitting a 2" medium terrain has exactly the same 3" movement, even though it moves through four times 'more' medium terrain?

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

the 'normal' way of doing this is that light terrain is judged at double movement rate, medium at triple and heavy terrain at... four times. However, this is not how it is written.

The intent of the rule is just as written above.  I wrote it in terms of rates, because that makes the math easier, but I can see how that can create confusion: 

Consider movement costs to be 4/3x for light, 2x for medium, and 4x for heavy.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

But this interpretation means that a model taking a move(terrain)-fire-move action would move further than a move(terrain)-fire action... even if it didnt actually want to fire and both models were crossing exactly the same terrain

Well, it shouldn't. If it does, that's an error on my part. Consider: the 4M figure is 1" into the terrain. It does move+fire+move = 1" of movement (counts as 2"), then fire, then 2" movement = a total move of 3". It does move+fire = 1" of movement (counts as 2") + 2" movement, then fire = a total move of 3".

Just that, if a model moves and hits a 1/2" medium terrain feature, then its total movement may be halved (depending on the previous interpretation) to, say, 3"

That would roughly be the way it goes in Wh40k. However, in D:VG, traversing 1/2" of medium terrain counts as 1" of distance moved towards the total distance the model can move. Which is to say 1" + 0.5" (counts as 1") + 2" = 3.5".

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Thanks for the clarifications guys. One more...

Covering Fire:

If I have three infantry with the same facing, and then an enemy infantry unit moves into my cover arc from the side, does this mean that all my infantry squad must fire at the first enemy target, before the rest of the enemy unit moves, and therefore my unit may 'kill' the same guy three times and then not be able to fire at the rest of the enemy squad?

If my unit is at different facings, and the enemy unit again moves in from the side, do I fire at the first enemy figure to enter the first facing of my unit, or can I wait for more than one of my figures to be able to fire at him? Otherwise, it seems that I forfeit covering fire when just one of my guys fires at just one of the enemy guys.

Generally, I am not sure when covering fire happens - when the first enemy figure is elligable (interupting its movement), at the end of the movement of the first enemy figure which becomes elligable, or at the end of the (first set of) movement for the entire unit when one enemy figure becomes an elligable target?

Thanks again.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

Generally, I am not sure when covering fire happens - when the first enemy figure is elligable (interupting its movement), at the end of the movement of the first enemy figure which becomes elligable, or at the end of the (first set of) movement for the entire unit when one enemy figure becomes an elligable target?

As per pg. 32 of the D:VG Rules, Covering fire is always resolved for the entire unit at once, at any point during an enemy unit's activation -- and hence, at any point during the activation of any single member of the unit -- when one of the conditions listed on pg. 31 occurs.

So

    [*]no, you do not need to use Covering fire on the first eligible enemy figure that does it's thing[*]yes, you need to use the Covering fire all at once[*]yes, you can and in fact in most cases will interrupt the enemy figure's action to perform Covering fire

The example on the page 32 is rather illustrative of the points, although it would've been a little better if the Altai had held their fire until the first Harem Warrior had completed it's activations obviously.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

While on Cover, can a unit declare Cohesive Cover fire? It hasn't come up just yet, but it seems as though the basic and support weapons cannot be covering at  the same time.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

As far as I know there is no such thing as Cohesive Cover, nor can you in fact explicitly put a unit on Covering fire orders of any type. Some members of the unit will instead implicitly be Covering when the unit's using certain types of fire orders.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

tnjrp wrote:

As per pg. 32 of the D:VG Rules, Covering fire is always resolved for the entire unit at once, at any point during an enemy unit's activation -- and hence, at any point during the activation of any single member of the unit -- when one of the conditions listed on pg. 31 occurs.

Thanks, that is very informative.

Guess what... (sorry!):

Supression fire - I assume that, if I make supression fire with a unit, and one (or more) members of the unit are subsequently killed, if I decide to continue the supression fire next activation then the supression template is shortened (just like if there had been a bad stoppage roll)? Is this correct?

Cone weapons - These confuse me a little. If one is fired, do I need to extend it to the maximum range? It seems counter-intuitive to fire less than the maximum range of a weapon of this type, and I would guess that cone weapons have a single range bracket and cant fire longer or shorter than this, but this is not stated in the rules. Is this correct?

Phase weapons - When firing phased, I guess that the first two range values represent the minimum and maximum ranges, and that the damage roll required score is for the upper of these two values. Can I decide to fire a phase weapon normally, and therefore fire within the 'minimum' phase range?

Thanks again.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hi Cybershadow,

With regards to suppression fire, yes, the template would be shortened in your example, since it is "regenerated" every activation.

Cone weapons cannot be fired as smaller or larger than their template size, which is unfortunately too large to fit onto an 8.5 by 11" page of the rulebook.  The assumption is that they are not very controllable and are more on or off.

You are correct that phase fire within the "phase range" will always use the upper value's target damage roll.  Phase weapons can always fire as "normal" vehicle-piercing weapons when targeting figures in line-of-sight.

Cheers,
Demian

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hi, and thanks for your patience. I am a little confused about Cone weapons still.

Take, for example, the Human Flamethrower. It has three range bands, and a max range of 15". My guy armed with this weapon is confronted by an enemy model at 3", a friendly at 8" and another enemy at 11".

If I fire, how far does the cone extend? I notice that all Cone wespons in the book have the same three range bands (5", 10" and 15"). Does this mean that Cone weapons always have this attribute?

Would I be correct in saying, in my example above, that the Flamethrower area extends the full 15", catching all three models in the effect and hitting them on the different scores for the range bands?

If this is the case, is it possible to have a cone weapon with the range bands: 5", 10", 15", 20" - meaning that each time it is fired the cone area must extend the full 20" and catching anything in the area of effect?

Thanks again.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 101

Re: Basic questions from a new player

cones only go to 15". but that template is huge.

a 45 degree arc that extends out from the "point" for 15"/roughly 381mm.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

lol  Sure, the template would be very large. I guess that my question is that is the 15" apex fixed, or does it depend on the weapon and the rule book just happens to have weapons with a 15" length.

And I am assuming that the range bands only determine the 'damage target' and not the actual range of the weapon.

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Not quite sure what you are saying with the last, but if you have played most any game that comes with physical teardrop-shaped (flamethrower) template (GorkaMorka, Infinity, Necromunda, VOID, Vor, Warzone, Wh40k eds 2-4...), you are already familiar with the Cone weapons modus operandi. You place the (imaginary or home-made) 15" long template and see which models are under it. Those are the ones eligible to be hit.

And therein (apart from the shape of the template, which is not a teardrop but, well, a cone) lies the only difference: the hits aren't "automatic" but instead the to hit target number is determined by the target's distance from the firing figure as per other weapons in D:VG. A similar mechanic was originally used in Vor, incidentally.

So in your example

Take, for example, the Human Flamethrower. It has three range bands, and a max range of 15". My guy armed with this weapon is confronted by an enemy model at 3", a friendly at 8" and another enemy at 11"

you cannot fire the Flamethrower in such a way that the friendly at 8" falls within its AOE, as you can't say it only extends 5", or 7" for that matter, this time around.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Not quite sure what you are saying with the last...

Sorry, what I meant was that the distance from target determines what you actually need to roll to hit the guy under the template.

I see the similarity with Vor. I guess that the only remaining question is whether 15" is a fixed max range for all Cone weapons.

you cannot fire the Flamethrower in such a way that the friendly at 8" falls within its AOE, as you can't say it only extends 5", or 7" for that matter, this time around.

Now you have confused me.  :oops:  Do you mean that the friendly model must be included in the template and that I have to roll damage against him as well as the two enemy models? (Since that is how I read the situation.)

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

In the same way that you can't cut off a piece of the Burst (or was it Spray? I forget) template in Vor in order to shorten it,  the 15" is a fixed range (so both minimum and maximum) for all Cone weapons currently available, yes.

Wouldn't entirely rule out more Cone weapons appearing in the future, but AFAIK there's no official plans for such currently.

As for the bit about the friendly, what I mean is that you may not position the cone "template" in such a way that any friendly model becomes an eligible target. In other words, intentional friendly fire is not allowed.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Yes, intentional friendly fire is not allowed, though as I'm thinking about it, this could be a +1 SR tactical advantage that would make sense for certain swarm or fascist armies.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I must have missed that part.... where does it state that frindly fire is not allowed?

Allowing some armies to do so would be interesting... perhaps only against units with a lower morale rating - so Elites can fire at anyone, etc.

More questions... this time on hand to hand combat:

1. If a model charges into base contact then its enemy must make an individual morale test. If this is fails, does this mean that the newly engaged model is shaken and placed prone? It seems to make more sense that they would turn tail, rather than hit the dirt.

2. A reflex roll is made to determine the order or striking. I assume that this is made for each activation (both mine and my enemies). Also, I assume that all attacks occur from one figure, then its enemy, and not that the alternate attacks with the winner of the reflex roll getting the first strike.

Many thanks... and congratulations on having the only rule that I have ever read to include the word 'obfuscating'!  :shock: