• Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I must have missed that part.... where does it state that frindly fire is not allowed?

Allowing some armies to do so would be interesting... perhaps only against units with a lower morale rating - so Elites can fire at anyone, etc.

More questions... this time on hand to hand combat:

1. If a model charges into base contact then its enemy must make an individual morale test. If this is fails, does this mean that the newly engaged model is shaken and placed prone? It seems to make more sense that they would turn tail, rather than hit the dirt.

2. A reflex roll is made to determine the order or striking. I assume that this is made for each activation (both mine and my enemies). Also, I assume that all attacks occur from one figure, then its enemy, and not that the alternate attacks with the winner of the reflex roll getting the first strike.

Many thanks... and congratulations on having the only rule that I have ever read to include the word 'obfuscating'!  :shock:

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

I must have missed that part.... where does it state that frindly fire is not allowed?

For Cone weapons, pg. 28. Also, you can't draw LOF through the base of a friendly figure with other weapons either, so it's kinda the same thing.

Allowing some armies to do so would be interesting...

And it would make sense since you can in fact shoot into hand-to-hand anyway.

And whilst on the subject...

1. If a model charges into base contact then its enemy must make an individual morale test. If this is fails, does this mean that the newly engaged model is shaken and placed prone? It seems to make more sense that they would turn tail, rather than hit the dirt

As per rules, they become Shaken without any particular exception, so the precise effect depends on their individual morale test type. Obviously in the basic rules it's always Cower. They would indeed run (or rather, crawl) away if they had time :wink:

2. A reflex roll is made to determine the order or striking. I assume that this is made for each activation (both mine and my enemies). Also, I assume that all attacks occur from one figure, then its enemy, and not that the alternate attacks with the winner of the reflex roll getting the first strike

Yes and yes.

You should be aware that HTH is a rather rare occurence in a game of D:VG. It can happen and will happen if you are determined enough to do it, but won't necessarily happen in every game.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

For Cone weapons, pg. 28. Also, you can't draw LOF through the base of a friendly figure with other weapons either, so it's kinda the same thing.

Thanks. I suddenly found this today!  :oops:

And it would make sense since you can in fact shoot into hand-to-hand anyway.

Yes, that puzzled me as well. But I guess that the 'friendly' figure is not intentionally aiming at his comrade.

As per rules, they become Shaken without any particular exception, so the precise effect depends on their individual morale test type. Obviously in the basic rules it's always Cower. They would indeed run (or rather, crawl) away if they had time

I should have mentioned, most of my questions are currently about the basic rules. It just seems that there are a lot of individual morale tests, and that the basic 'cower' effect seems a bit counter-intuitive. The advanced rules may indeed solve this.

You should be aware that HTH is a rather rare occurence in a game of D:VG. It can happen and will happen if you are determined enough to do it, but won't necessarily happen in every game.

I like this about D:VG. Close combat is far to common in some other games at this scale in a sci-fi setting (in my opinion).

Moving on... to the final set of questions about the basic rules (just wait until I get to the advanced rules!  lol ):

1. Vehicles ramming infantry - I am a little confused about this. If successful, as far as I can tell, the infantry figure is 'thrown' behind the vehicle at a 45 degree angle to one side. Is this correct? I also assume that the vehicle does not need to 'declare' a ram at all, it does not count as close combat, and that it does not affect the vehicles movements (and therefore the vehicle can plow through a number of infantry figures in a single movement).

2. Passenger survival - The rules state "As soon as any vehicle loses its last damage point...". Shouldnt this be 'structural point' and not actually damage point?

3. Exiting a 'running' vehicle - The rule states the infantry are placed 2" and 4" (SI and PI) implying SI at 2" and PI at 4". But intuition and the example imply the other way round, SI at 4" and PI at 2".

Many thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

It just seems that there are a lot of individual morale tests, and that the basic 'cower' effect seems a bit counter-intuitive. The advanced rules may indeed solve this

There are a lot of individual morale tests because of D:VG's morale-based approach. And in almost all of the advanced morale effects also proscribe initially going prone, so you might be better off thinking going prone in HTH is just a reflection of the trooper loosing his will to fight.

1. Vehicles ramming infantry - I am a little confused about this. If successful, as far as I can tell, the infantry figure is 'thrown' behind the vehicle at a 45 degree angle to one side. Is this correct?

I've understood that the figure is thrown away from the vehicle, like so:

                 F 
                / 
VVVVV          / 
VVVVV---------X-----> 
VVVVV

I also assume that the vehicle does not need to 'declare' a ram at all, it does not count as close combat, and that it does not affect the vehicles movements (and therefore the vehicle can plow through a number of infantry figures in a single movement)

Correct. The vehicle simply makes its move and any figures it moves into or over will be rammed. This includes the terrain features the vehicle can't cross, as well.

2. Passenger survival - The rules state "As soon as any vehicle loses its last damage point...". Shouldnt this be 'structural point' and not actually damage point?

Yes, it should -- this is a late-to-the-fray error I'm afraid. Pg. 48 is correct in this regard.

3. Exiting a 'running' vehicle - The rule states the infantry are placed 2" and 4" (SI and PI) implying SI at 2" and PI at 4". But intuition and the example imply the other way round, SI at 4" and PI at 2"

Hmm, the version I have (it's the full rules but the text should be the same) lists those values for exiting walking speed vehicles. Any infantry exiting at running speed would be placed within 4" of the vehicle, regardless of the type. The example contradicts this, placing Taks within 2" of the running Pyramid.

I think I'll bet on Demian to clear this up and will not make any assumptions.

Must've been partially asleep when I proofed pg. 52 back when D:VG was being playtested :oops:

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Good work, you caught two more errata:

1. jumping from walking vehicles: within 4" for SI, 2" for PI
2. for vehicles with SDC, no passengers might roll for survival until last SDC is gone

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Demian Rose wrote:

1. jumping from walking vehicles: within 4" for SI, 2" for PI

And jumping from the running vehicles..?

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Same: 4" SI, 2" PI

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Ok, that clears it. Makes sense too, although I suppose you could assume the poor grunts'll tumble an extra distance when jumping from a speeding vehicle :wink:

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I've understood that the figure is thrown away from the vehicle, like so:

                   F 
                 / 
VVVVV          / 
VVVVV---------X-----> 
VVVVV

I have the same diagram in my head, but the vehicle is going in the other direction (and therefore the poor infantryman is thrown backwards over the vehicle and behind it).

Good work, you caught two more errata

I am available for (and interested in) helping to proofread future suppliments! (My advantage is that I am not so bright.)  lol

Ok, that clears it. Makes sense too, although I suppose you could assume the poor grunts'll tumble an extra distance when jumping from a speeding vehicle

That is the way that intuition implies things would work. I prefer to think of it that the SI are lighter and so manage to jump further than the PI, who are lucky to land standing.

One final question on the basic rules:

If a unit boards a vehicle, they become a single, ad hoc unit. Does this mean that the standard leadership penalties apply to a unit leader on a vehicle? (I also assume that the unit can disembark without any of the problems of a unit splitting on the battlefield.)

The advanced rules actually throw up less questions for me...

I guess that a unit which begins the game hidden, can elect to 'waste' its activation in order to remain hidden for another turn.

Sneak and Fire - does this state that a single model may fire a single weapon, or that the sneaking unit can all fire one weapon type (for example all of the primary weapons)?

Many thanks.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

On a different note... I have gone through some archived threads and it is mentioned that there are some 40K conversion lists for Defiance around somewhere. Are these available? I have a load of 40K minis and it would be good to use them to learn Defiance better.

Otherwise, I will put some together myself.

Also, there is mention of a suppliment for Defiance coming soon. Are there any details on this?

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

CyberShadow wrote:

I have the same diagram in my head, but the vehicle is going in the other direction

Perhaps Demian would like to clear this up as well? I frankly just never thought of that alternative at all when seeing the wording.

And while on the subject, I'm not entirely sure either where I got the idea that the figures riding in a vehicle won't be able to act apart from the Leader/Commander giving their "officer bonuses" to the vehicle. While allowing them to act (= shoot) normally will create problems, pg. 52 doesn't seem to support the theory that they can't, and the only explicit limitations I found elsewhere in the text is that passengers may not throw grenades.

If a unit boards a vehicle, they become a single, ad hoc unit. Does this mean that the standard leadership penalties apply to a unit leader on a vehicle? (I also assume that the unit can disembark without any of the problems of a unit splitting on the battlefield.)

It's a "special ad hoc unit" that is in fact created by joining (which is normally forbidden for ad hocs) so there shouldn't be any problem with the spliting either. But since it's an ad hoc unit, yes I'm of a mind that normal command & control restrictions apply.

I guess that a unit which begins the game hidden, can elect to 'waste' its activation in order to remain hidden for another turn

Not if the rules for activation apply as normal. According to them,  activating is not equivalent of doing something: a unit simply must activate once it's initiative card comes up and the members then may use the activation for "picking their noses" if you so choose. Didn't see an exception this this in the Hidden rules.

Sneak and Fire - does this state that a single model may fire a single weapon, or that the sneaking unit can all fire one weapon type (for example all of the primary weapons)?

The former.

I have gone through some archived threads and it is mentioned that there are some 40K conversion lists for Defiance around somewhere

See the Army Demos PDF in the Defiance section of the MJ12 site.

Otherwise, I will put some together myself

That's a big part of the charm of D:VG anyway.

Also, there is mention of a suppliment for Defiance coming soon. Are there any details on this?

No, unless Demian likes to leak some tongue

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

See the Army Demos PDF in the Defiance section of the MJ12 site.

And that would be... where? (See, told you I was not so bright!)

I looked through the site and the links on the left of the front page go to a few demo rules and stats, but nothing more, and the catalogue page wants my money.

Thanks.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Basic questions from a new player

kevinsmith67206 wrote:

> Select "Defiance" under Our Games on the MJ-12 home page, and
> then on the subsequent screen look in the red box on the
> right side of the screen. There should be several selections,
> one of which will be Army Demos.

Or, you could just click on this link:

http://mj12games.com/defiance/armydemos.pdf

However, I believe the 40k conversion being referred to was in the Yahoo! group files section, but has long since disappeared.

> > I looked through the site and the links on the left of the front
> page go to a few demo rules and stats, but nothing more, and
> the catalogue page wants my money.

And what's wrong with that? You want to give us your money... you need to give us your money... you will give us your money...

smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I... will... give...  :shock:

I have the army demo. Is there anything on the Yahoo Group? I have not yet joined.

Does this mean that the 40K conversions are lost to time? I dont necessarily object to sitting down and playing with numbers (in fact, I live for it. I am an accountant wargamer!).

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I may have the files. I will check after work.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

nd while on the subject, I'm not entirely sure either where I got the idea that the figures riding in a vehicle won't be able to act apart from the Leader/Commander giving their "officer bonuses" to the vehicle. While allowing them to act (= shoot) normally will create problems, pg. 52 doesn't seem to support the theory that they can't, and the only explicit limitations I found elsewhere in the text is that passengers may not throw grenades.

In Defiance, the idea was that too much fiddling with units moving onto and off of vehicles was a bit fiddly for the time scale, as was having specific rules for troops in pick up trucks firing out of them, etc.  Since "passengers" can only be on APCs or AFVs, people shooting from vehciles are abstracted as weapons with the exposed cupola modifier.  That's a long way of saying that passengers can not technically shoot from within a vehicle.

re: the 40K lists.  IIRC, they were made for Starslayer, Defiance's predescessor.  I made the generic lists that are downloadable, but don't have the time to do a series of 40K-specific lists myself.

re: the supplement.  It is actively being worked on in terms of layout.  It will contain some minor rule changes - many of which will increase the flexibility of the army customizer - and will have new point value charts for fighting in close quarters, where short-range guns and grenades are much more valuable than on an open tabletop.

Cheers,
Demian

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Demian Rose wrote:

passengers can not technically shoot from within a vehicle

That's how I've understood it but I just couldn't find the point in the rules where it actually does explicitly say that. Apart from the grenades.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

The Demo PDFs link right above the Pig Iron link has the Generic lists, and they are fairly easy to adapt to WH40K lists since they deal with broad, thematic armies.

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hi. Still here...

I may have the files. I will check after work.

Did these turn up anywhere?

re: the supplement. It is actively being worked on in terms of layout. It will contain some minor rule changes - many of which will increase the flexibility of the army customizer - and will have new point value charts for fighting in close quarters, where short-range guns and grenades are much more valuable than on an open tabletop.

Thanks for the inside information. Any idea when this is scheduled for release?

Also, is there a place that lists created by players are archived? The Yahoo Group seems to have some, but I cant seem to find it and I dont know how active it is. This site would be a sensible place, but I am not sure if the space and resources exist, or how this would leave MJ12 in terms of copyright ownership. I am putting together a general wargames site, and I will certainly be having a Defiance section in it, so I would be interested in opening this up as a resource (are there any Defiance fan web sites around?).

A few more questions from the army customiser (customizer for those across the pond  8)  )...

1. Page 67, sections 2, 3 and 4. I guess that the '25%' Maximum is the total points value of the force which can be spend on these units when building a force for a game... Right?

2. Page 67, section 6 - I guess that, since Matrix quality troops dont take individual morale tests, they dont need to spend any points on the 'failed inidividual morale test' results.

3. Page 68, section 7 - mob mentality. If a standard unit has a maximum size of 8, then a mob has a maximum unit size of 16. If the mob unit is now at 7 models, what is the rally roll modifier? (So, is the mob half size counted as the half standard unit size, or half mob unit size?)

4. Page 72, sections 1 to 10. Can you select not to purchase these upgrades at all - since if you have to at least purchase the minimum level for each section option, you are going to run out of points quickly? If you dont need to purchase even the minimum level for these, what are the values? For example...

Section 1 - no points - how many frames can be purchased?
Sections 2, 3 and 4 - no points - how much can SI, PI and vehicle weapons totally cost?
Section 5 - no points - no phase weapons allowed?
Section 6 - no points - what armour rating is allowed?
Section 7 - no points - PI move must be 5 or less?
Section 8 - no points - no field saves?
Section 9 - no points - what HTH rating is given to infantry or Mecha?
Section 10 - no points - what happens here, no indirect fire?

5. Reflex - Is this freely chosen by the player? It seems that the reflex value is used to calculate other values, but there is no statement on how the player selects the reflex values.

6. Are there rules which allow the use of troops without morale rules? For example, what about a force consisting of standard infantry backed up by robotic warriors, which behave completely differently in terms of morale? Would each one then be a Mecha at size 2?

7. Is there anywhere that there are some (detailed) battle reports for the game? It would really help for me to read a battle report giving details of the moves made and the dice rolled.

Thanks, and all the best.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

1. Yes, the maximum % of total force points value that can be spent on that type. Note that a vehicle that is not part of a standard unit will count against both ad-hoc and vehicle %

2. Matrix units don't take individual morale tests, but I don't know if it is legal to field a 100% matrix quality force, even though I've done so. I'd just assume a 0 cost individual morale failure.

3. A unit that starts in mob formation is always in mob formation, so it is half the mob size.

4. Page 71 details the standard limitations in the "standard army limitation profile". These cost 0, and are defined as follows:

15 unique frames
20PV max for SI weapons
40PV max for PI weapons
80PV vehicle weapons
No phase weapons
Best armour rating is 0
PI move is 5 or less
No field saves
10PV/15PV HTH value (second value is for mecha)
IF weapons 2'' template

5. Reflex cost is included in table 2.4, page 98, and modifies the point value of the HTH rating up or down from 0.

6. I'm not sure about that. If you take veteran troops with some augmentations like combat drugs, and the bravado advantage, you won't have to worry *much* about morale until the squad gets pretty much obliterated.

7. I don't think there are at this stage.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Hmmm, it seems the demos I have are the ones linked in an earlier post. While they do not equate to a copy of the WH40K armies, they illustrate the same general themes. There is a hard-case-elite army that could use Space Marine figures, a grunts-and-guns army that could use ImpG, as well as a techno-barbarian horde that could use Orks and a swarm army that would use, oh I don't know, maybe Tyrannids.

How good these are for your purposes depends on what you're trying to do. If you were trying to recreate the psykurium-bolter vs daemons tactical dynamic, you'd want a high field-save army (demonic) vs an army with squads that use field piercing weapons (crusaders of some sort).

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

smokingwreckage wrote:

2. Matrix units don't take individual morale tests, but I don't know if it is legal to field a 100% matrix quality force, even though I've done so. I'd just assume a 0 cost individual morale failure

As far as I know, there is no rule against building, much less using a 100% Matrix quality army. The Matrix troops tend to be somewhat limited in their command and control, so I'd assume it balances out against a more varied force.

6. I'm not sure about that. If you take veteran troops with some augmentations like combat drugs, and the bravado advantage, you won't have to worry *much* about morale until the squad gets pretty much obliterated

Not sure how to interpret the original question, but I do know that for now there is no troop type that completely ignores all morale rules. Even vehicles have an equivalent. Such a troop type would go against grain of the game too IMHO.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Basic questions from a new player

I'm not sure about that. If you take veteran troops with some augmentations like combat drugs, and the bravado advantage, you won't have to worry *much* about morale until the squad gets pretty much obliterated

Not sure how to interpret the original question, but I do know that for now there is no troop type that completely ignores all morale rules. Even vehicles have an equivalent. Such a troop type would go against grain of the game too IMHO.

tnjrp is correct, there is no troop quality that completely ignores the morale rules, although matrix troops can never be eliminated due to failed morale, unlike every other type (they auto-rally).

  • Registered: 2006-06-04
  • Posts: 20

Re: Basic questions from a new player

Thanks guys. I am coming to the end of my questions now.

smokingwreckage - This is your own fault really. It was your comment about Defiance on the Reaper > CAV board which brought the game to my attention in the first place!  :twisted:

Another short question: Vehicle damage - if a vehicle has a 9" move, and suffers a move damage result, it loses 1/4 move, rounded up. So, it suffers a 3" reduction. A total of three of these hits means that it has lost 3/4 movement, but now has a move rate of zero. If the next hit also is a move reduction, does it count as having 1/4 move remaining, or does it count as zero move and so the hit is transferred?

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Basic questions from a new player

As per pg. 49, a vehicle with a starting movement of 9" looses 3" of movement per every hit. Therefore it has no movement left after three hits. Hence, the damage is transferred.