• Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Topic: Dropships

Just a question for Dan...
I was tinkering with an idea from the Starlancer game. I created a ship, with a hull 1, shields 0, and 4 expendible "torpedoes" (1/2/2)

Basically I was making the heavy torpedo bombers that are used.... I made them tech level zero across the board, and they have a cost of 25.

The problem I am having is that in order to make it work, I removed the hyperdrives.

Is there a way in Starmada to simulate a dropship?
I want to build a carrier to transport a few of these, but am not sure how to rate them.  Would I use a fighter bay for each one, or is there a way to simulate the fact that another ship carries them through hyperspace to the battle?

How would I make a dropship? How many points would the docking port be? And how would it add to the final cost of the ship?

Thanks Much
John

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Dropships

I'd like to hear this one myself..

...mecha-laden dropships in Starmada!!!

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Dropships

I just watched the wing commander movie that they did.... and viewing it as a stand alone movie, not attached to the video games, it wasn't that bad.  The ship to ship combat was somewhat better than star wars episode 3.....

Anyways, I noted that the broadsword heavy bomber ships were also very similar to the ships I am asking about here.....

John

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Dropships

Nahuris wrote:

Just a question for Dan...
I was tinkering with an idea from the Starlancer game. I created a ship, with a hull 1, shields 0, and 4 expendible "torpedoes" (1/2/2)

Basically I was making the heavy torpedo bombers that are used.... I made them tech level zero across the board, and they have a cost of 25.

The problem I am having is that in order to make it work, I removed the hyperdrives.

There used to be something in (or for) the compendium that allowed a larger ship to carry a smaller one, but I can't remember what the SU or Orat/Drat was.  I 'thought' the SU was 1.5 x hull size, but with the way SX handles SU for different sized ships, it might need to be re-addressed!  I'd like to get an 'official' opinion since the fighters in Star Frontiers should be considered a hull size 1 ship.

-Bren

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: Dropships

VBAM handled dropships by requiring that the design carry Troops and Vehicle Bays.


There is also a VBAM tech item for Tender - or bays to carry small 1 hull ships.

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 859

Re: Dropships

I don't think there was an option for a larger ship to carry a smaller one in the Compendium--could you mean FT?

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: Dropships

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

I don't think there was an option for a larger ship to carry a smaller one in the Compendium--could you mean FT?

It came in with VBAM, it is an ability in that game. The coming Stars Divided book offers a way to model it in Starmada designs.

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 859

Re: Dropships

No, I was replying to jygro, not to you. I apologise.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Dropships

Nahuris wrote:

Is there a way in Starmada to simulate a dropship?
I want to build a carrier to transport a few of these, but am not sure how to rate them.  Would I use a fighter bay for each one, or is there a way to simulate the fact that another ship carries them through hyperspace to the battle?

I believe the term "dropship" is traditionally used in sci-fi to refer to a ship that drops through an atmosphere and lands ground troops planetside... what you are referring to is more commonly called a "battle rider" or somesuch.

To simulate what you're talking about, it should be a simple matter to set aside X SUs on the carrier, where X is 25% more than the total SUs of the largest ship that can be carried.

For example, you want a Hangar (3), meaning it will carry a size 3 ship, a size 2 and a size 1, or 3 size 1 ships. A size 3 ship has 360 SUs, so the Hangar requires 450 SUs.

For Combat Rating purposes, the Hangar itself plays no role in the cost; it would be merely for "campaign" purposes, to allow you to have ships without hyperdrives involved in a battle.

Note that because of the way Starmada X determines SUs per hull size, it is very inefficient to use a large Hangar to house many smaller ships... it's much better to have 10x Hangar (1) than one Hangar (10).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 158

Re: Dropships

X+25% Dan? Really? I think in my calculations I sent to you I was estimating X+15% -- but I do not have the files with me, so if you could verify that I would appreciate it.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Dropships

KDLadage wrote:

X+25% Dan? Really? I think in my calculations I sent to you I was estimating X+15% -- but I do not have the files with me, so if you could verify that I would appreciate it.

Just throwing a number out there... you don't expect me to be consistent from day to day, do you? smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: Dropships

cricket wrote:
Nahuris wrote:

Is there a way in Starmada to simulate a dropship?
I want to build a carrier to transport a few of these, but am not sure how to rate them.  Would I use a fighter bay for each one, or is there a way to simulate the fact that another ship carries them through hyperspace to the battle?

I believe the term "dropship" is traditionally used in sci-fi to refer to a ship that drops through an atmosphere and lands ground troops planetside... what you are referring to is more commonly called a "battle rider" or somesuch.

Interesting contrast there. I have always pictured a "battle rider" as a carrier for non-hyper frigates, destroyers, or larger - that is carrying and deploying warships.

Not sure what you would call the other end, which is I think what Nahuris was trying to convey, was a troop ship loaded with combat forces and small non-hyper but durable ships designed to deliver discreet combat units from the troop ship to a planet's surface.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Dropships

Taltos wrote:

Interesting contrast there. I have always pictured a "battle rider" as a carrier for non-hyper frigates, destroyers, or larger - that is carrying and deploying warships.

Not sure what you would call the other end, which is I think what Nahuris was trying to convey, was a troop ship loaded with combat forces and small non-hyper but durable ships designed to deliver discreet combat units from the troop ship to a planet's surface.

Nope... the original post is specifically talking about a ship. A small one, but a ship nonetheless; it makes no mention of troops.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Dropships

Troop ships would come later.... right now, I am specifically talking about a way to get non-hyperspace capable ships out to battle.

I do like the idea of small size one or two hull ships with expendible weapons operating as small PT boats.  The goal would be to have an inexpensive support wing based off of a carrier that has maybe a hull of 12, 6 wings of fighters, and 2 heavy torpedo carriers to act as PT Boats in support of the fleet.....

I could just as easily give them a +1 or +2 weapons, and leave the Hyperdrive.... but that didn't have the feel I was looking for with the fleet.

In addition, I am also working on deployable gun batteries.... small shielded hulls with minimal engines (1, if that) and 360 fire arcs.....  The carrier brings them into position, and deploys them to provide cover fire, ect.

Finally, I have a flak boat version of the torpedo bomber that uses small range 3 rotary guns 3/1/1, in place of the torpedoes,  and flies around supporting the rest of the fleet in an ant-fighter role......

Again, I could give them higher weapon levels, and just leave the hyperdrive on...but I was preferring the "feel" of having small deployable ships with specific roles within the fleet..... I wanted something in between capital ships and fighters that had definite roles with a fleet, and that didn't cost an arm and a leg to deploy....... something that I could list as a 6 man support, craft, ect.

John

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Dropships

cricket wrote:

Nope... the original post is specifically talking about a ship. A small one, but a ship nonetheless; it makes no mention of troops.

True....but....

Nahuris wrote:

Is there a way in Starmada to simulate a dropship?

In FASA's Battletech, 'Dropship' is a specific type of re-entry vehicle designed to carry Mecha into the battle....hence my enthusiasm.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: Dropships

What is being described here reminds me of Fast Patrol Ships, PFs,  in Star Fleet Battles,   These PFs were not  able to travel from star to star.  The game SFB had special ships called PF Tenders that carried them from star to star.  Also, some regular ships could carry a few on special links.   These ships had lotsa firepower and were fast.  (The 0rion ones were especially deadly).   It would be excellent to add this ability to Starmada.

Steven Gilchrist; Jacksonville, Fla, USA

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: Dropships

cricket wrote:
Taltos wrote:

Interesting contrast there. I have always pictured a "battle rider" as a carrier for non-hyper frigates, destroyers, or larger - that is carrying and deploying warships.

Not sure what you would call the other end, which is I think what Nahuris was trying to convey, was a troop ship loaded with combat forces and small non-hyper but durable ships designed to deliver discreet combat units from the troop ship to a planet's surface.

Nope... the original post is specifically talking about a ship. A small one, but a ship nonetheless; it makes no mention of troops.

Truth, but dropship is a common term for troop landers in more than one genre / setting so I claim that my error is forgivable.  :wink:

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Dropships

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

I don't think there was an option for a larger ship to carry a smaller one in the Compendium--could you mean FT?

It might have not made it into the compendium, but there was definitely something akin to a 'tender' before SX (I remember using them back in the day).  But since we got a ruling from the mighty Dan, we can all rest easy! smile

Tender in VBAM is where I have heard the discussion come up again (since hyperdrives are very important in campaign games).  I knew there was a discussion somewhere...

-Bren

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: Dropships

P55 of the compendium talks about Towing and is, to date the only "official" rendering of one ship carrying another that I am aware of (pre-compendium does not apply)

However, Dan's post on the costs of carrying another ship comes pretty close, I'd say.

This way you get your dropships and PT boats both.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Dropships

Wasn't there a discussion about 'Gunboats' over on the Yahoo list a few years back, under the Compendium rules?

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Dropships

The downside of towing is that only one ship may be towed...... and since the math specifically states that the tow speed is computed by the current engine ratings of the ship/ships doing the towing... I assumed that it was only possible in real space vs. hyperspace.

Of course, if you subscribe to the hyperspace field theory... then as long as the ships are in the same hex, they will jump with the ship carrying the hyperspace unit........ Although I would immediately limit it, so that the ship with the hyperdrive can only carry half of it's own hull points in riders..... and must have a second hyperdrive unit to do so......

If not limited, I see a bunch of Hull 1 jump ships bringing in hull 20 non-jump battleships..... just for the extra weapons on the bigger ships....LOL


Dan, how about this?  A ship that carries non-jump ships must pay 5% SU in docking clamps, and carry a second Hyperdrive unit.... and can only carry half of it's own hull value in various drop-ships.

Drop-ships can be defined as any small ship designed to drop away from a jump capable carrier ship. This would include mech carriers, troop transports, and defensive or small strike ships.

I include the small strike ships to simulate the Achilles dropship from Battletech. It is designed to provide warships with anti-fighter support, and is basically a fast drop-ship with a lot of anti-fighter weapons.....

Then as a side rule, while attached, dropships use the shield rating of the jumpship they are on... and can only activate their shields on the turn following their release.... although they can move full distance, on their release turn. In addition, while attached, dropships cannot launch fighters or drones or fire weapons, but can be targeted and if destroyed, produce explosions as normal.

John

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Dropships

I hate replying to myself, but I was looking at something. I tried it the way that Dan put in earlier, and realized that the point cost of the hanger on the carrier changed depending on the tech level of the ship it was carrying.....  that didn't seem entirely right.... so I looked for a way that would be more even, based on the carrier.... and that would keep the actual hanger space used about the same.... even if special equipment had improved costs due to higher tech levels......

Just and idea, and one I hope other people look at as well.

John

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Dropships

Nahuris wrote:

I hate replying to myself, but I was looking at something. I tried it the way that Dan put in earlier, and realized that the point cost of the hanger on the carrier changed depending on the tech level of the ship it was carrying.....  that didn't seem entirely right.... so I looked for a way that would be more even, based on the carrier.... and that would keep the actual hanger space used about the same.... even if special equipment had improved costs due to higher tech levels......

Hangars would have to be a piece of equipment that is not affected by tech level.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Dropships

I agree, but if we listed them as special equipment instead of just a percentage of SU's... they become subject to tech levels. Also, if we base the cost off of the ships they carry, then you have varying costs based on the final cost of the ship, which changes, depending on what is on it.....

I am experimenting with it right now.....

John

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Dropships

thedugan wrote:

Wasn't there a discussion about 'Gunboats' over on the Yahoo list a few years back, under the Compendium rules?

Now that you say something, I remember talking about them as well.  Looks like we got it covered as it seems. 

-Bren