Topic: Combat Space Patrol

Ironchicken wrote:

Something I was thinking of I would like to bounce in here... an addition to the dogfight rules.

A fighter flight can be given a guard order. It then moves with the ship it is guarding in the normal move phase but not in the fighter phase. During the fighter phase if an enemy flight ends its move within 2 hexes the flight can immeadiately intercept and engage the enemy in a dogfight.

Moved this to a new topic, as the other was getting unwieldy...

Can I say I LOVE this idea? smile

However, I would alter it slightly:

A fighter flight can be designated as performing combat space patrol (CSP) INSTEAD of making an attack at the end of its movement. This must be done while in the same hex as a friendly starship (or also in an adjacent hex?). Place an appropriate marker next to the flight.

While on CSP, the flight gains the ability to intercept an enemy flight that strays to within six hexes. After an enemy flight has moved, but BEFORE it has attacked, ONE flight on CSP may attempt to intercept. Roll a die; if the result is equal to or greater than the range, the interception occurs. The CSP flight is moved to a hex adjacent to the target flight, and its attack is resolved BEFORE the enemy flight gets to attack. If this roll is less than the range, the attempt has failed-- the flight is still moved to a hex adjacent to the target flight, but it loses the opportunity to attack.

A flight on CSP cannot move during the Fighter Phase (except to intercept as above); however, it does move with the starship around which it is patrolling.

Once placed on CSP, a flight MUST remain so until an interception attempt is made (successful or otherwise).

If using the optional Dogfight rules (F.3), the intercepting flight may be moved into the same hex as the target flight instead of an adjacent hex.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Sounds good, except why is only one flight allowed to intercept?  If you're dumb enough to get a single flight near a ship with six CSPs out, you deserve to get gang-tackled.

You might want to allow fighter flights to escort other fighter flights as well (using the same general rules as CSPs), with CSPs having to jump escorts at least one-for-one before they get to attack the escorted (bomber) squadrons.

The "move along with the defended ship" thing will actually make fighters move faster than normal with some ships (small hulls and/or advanced tech engines).

Rich

Re: Combat Space Patrol

I like it too !!!

It gives the capital ship a defense during the fighter phase, without being unwieldy. It also allows the fighters to support your fleet, rather than being an almost independent force on the board.....

I am going to see if my friend will go for it for our next battle.

John

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Sounds like a winner to me as well

Re: Combat Space Patrol

The only change I might make would be to have the option of re-assigning fighters set to CSP to attack, if no longer needed to guard other ships......

I would have it as a declared action on one turn, but not taking affect until the next turn......

On Turn 3, I realize that I need to send a fighter flight out to attack a ship.... so I declare that I am releasing a flight from CSP, before the end of the turn... that flight can no longer intercept, and on turn 4 is treated as a normal fighter flight as regards to movement during the fighter phase, ect.

John

Re: Combat Space Patrol

I am glad the idea seems to have merit  big_smile

I can see the locking of CSP as a mechanism to close the potential for abuse. As soon as you have dealt with enemy fighters yours suddenly gain free reign. Probably realistic but may not necessarily be good for the game.

I would suggest that the flight can land and re-launch to revert to a normal free to act flight. Fluff may suggest rearming for anti ship and removing the boosters required for CSP if fluff is needed. This would create a delay and make a carrier rearming fighters a priority target on that turn. However, this may be less wieldy than is generally the flavour of Starmada.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

That would work too... I wanted to avoid the "these fighters are CSP..... and later in the turn, they fly off and go their own way.... with the "I changed my mind""   That's why I was thinking of announcing it a turn ahead... but having to land and take off works too.....

Also, would you be able to declare an interception on a capital ship that strays into range?

I had one opponent who loved to design ships with range 3 and 6 weapons on a hull between 3 and 6, with 12 engines, PDS, but no shields.... he holds them back until you are committed against something else, and then races them in to rake along your flanks.

Overall, I really like the CPS as it gives us a means of countering fighter swarms without major shifts in the rules.

John

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Nahuris wrote:

Overall, I really like the CPS as it gives us a means of countering fighter swarms without major shifts in the rules.

John

It only counters enemy fighters if you have rough parity in numbers (no worse than a 3:2 ratio, I'd guess), which is often a mutual destruction scenario anyway even without CSP.  An outnumbered opponent will still find himself swamped under, he'll just get his shots in first before his fighters vanish.  Helps some, but it probably isn't game-winning.

The rules also need to spell out what happens to a CSP when the ship it's guarding gets destroyed.  Presumably it becomes a "free agent" again as it would after an interception, but it would be nice to have it in b&w.

Rich

Re: Combat Space Patrol

hundvig wrote:

The rules also need to spell out what happens to a CSP when the ship it's guarding gets destroyed.  Presumably it becomes a "free agent" again as it would after an interception, but it would be nice to have it in b&w.

Rich

I feel that fighters should either operate as CSP or 'standard' and they can only be switched between the two modes on board the carrier. Therefore if the guarded ship is destroyed the CSP flight should be reallocated to another ship.

One advantage of carriers being needed to switch modes is that it give carriers a function other than being a frieghter sitting in the fleet.

I may have a go at writing the whole thing up.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

I think I have covered every eventuality I can think of....

Combat Space Patrol

When launching from carrier a fighter flight can be designated as performing one of two functions. The first is the normal attack mode and the second is combat space patrol (CSP).

Fighters on CSP do not move in fighters phase and cannot attack ships. They are instead allocated to a ship to help defend it and nearby vessels against fighter attack. The fighter flight can only be allocated to a ship within the fighters normal move and is immediately placed with the ship. The fighters are considered to be in the same hex as the ship but for convenience the flight may be placed adjacent. Pick an appropriate marker to designate the flight on CSP.

While on CSP, the flight gains the ability to intercept an enemy flight that strays to within six hexes. After an enemy flight has moved, but BEFORE it has attacked, any flight on CSP can attempt to intercept. Roll a die; if the result is equal to or greater than the range, the interception occurs. The CSP flight is moved to a hex adjacent to the target flight, and its attack is resolved BEFORE the enemy flight gets to attack. If this roll is less than the range, the attempt has failed. The fighter flight is then marked as spent (flip over the counter used if appropriate or turn the flight around). This makes defence of the stationed ship extremely effective with this effectiveness diminishing the further CSP fighters need to move to intercept.

Each flight on CSP may attempt to intercept only once per turn

A flight on CSP cannot move during the Fighter Phase (except to intercept as above); however, it does move with the ship around which it is patrolling.

Once placed on CSP, a flight MUST remain so until an interception attempt is made (successful or otherwise).

If using the optional Dogfight rules (F.3), the intercepting flight may be moved into the same hex as the target flight instead of an adjacent hex. After the dogfight they can return to their charge.

To change a flight of fighters from CSP to normal attack (or vice-versa) it must land on a carrier.

If 2 ships with fighters on CSP move within 6 hexes of each other the fighters do not engage. They are on guard orders and will stay with their charge.

If the ship protected by a flight on CSP is destroyed then the flight can reallocate to another ship within move range. If there is no ship within move range the flight lands on the nearest carrier in the end phase. If there is no carrier it is considered destroyed.

Slow fighters get a -1 to intercept and fast fighters get a +1.

Fighters on CSP can engage drones or battle satellites.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

> -----Original Message-----
> If a CSP flight waits until an attacking flight gets to
> within one hex to attack the ship that it's protecting, then
> the attacking flight will be within one hex of the CSP
> flight. That means that the intercept roll will always
> succeed. If I'm understanding the proposed rules, that is.
> I guess I just don't see the point of a CSP flight
> intercepting a flight more than one hex from the ship it's protecting.
> Kevin

There may not be a point in doing so, but it is an option-- for example, if a ship three hexes away gets jumped by enemy fighters, you can attempt to intercept them before they get to attack. But you're right; the most effective use of CSP is to protect a ship in the same hex.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Combat Space Patrol

cricket wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> If a CSP flight waits until an attacking flight gets to
> within one hex to attack the ship that it's protecting, then
> the attacking flight will be within one hex of the CSP
> flight. That means that the intercept roll will always
> succeed. If I'm understanding the proposed rules, that is.
> I guess I just don't see the point of a CSP flight
> intercepting a flight more than one hex from the ship it's protecting.
> Kevin

There may not be a point in doing so, but it is an option-- for example, if a ship three hexes away gets jumped by enemy fighters, you can attempt to intercept them before they get to attack. But you're right; the most effective use of CSP is to protect a ship in the same hex.

Yes, think squadrons rules as in VBAM:SX. Fighters on CSP can protect a group of ships if they stay close enough together.

... and of course fighters with 2 hex range.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mj12games@yahoogroups.com
> Then you probably should change the way the proposed rules
> are worded. Because the proposed rules make it sound like the
> CSP flight must be assigned to a specific ship. If it's
> assigned to a specific ship then it shouldn't be allowed to
> provide cover for another ship that's being targeted.
> Kevin

The proposed rules are worded correctly, in that a flight on CSP must be "stationed" around a particular ship. However, I'll have to disagree with you-- I don't see why a flight shouldn't be allowed to provide cover to nearby vessels, albeit with reduced efficiency (thus the roll for success).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Combat Space Patrol

cricket wrote:

The proposed rules are worded correctly, in that a flight on CSP must be "stationed" around a particular ship. However, I'll have to disagree with you-- I don't see why a flight shouldn't be allowed to provide cover to nearby vessels, albeit with reduced efficiency (thus the roll for success).

The following is the way it's worded.

Fighters on CSP do not move in fighters phase and cannot attack ships. They are instead allocated to a ship to help defend it. The fighter flight can only be allocated to a ship within the fighters normal move and is immediately placed with the ship. The fighters are considered to be in the same hex as the ship but for convenience the flight may be placed adjacent. Pick an appropriate marker to designate the flight on CSP.

Now, the above to me most definitely implies that a CSP flight is assigned to defend a specific ship. If you want to allow them to defend any ship then simply add a sentence or two stating that. I don't really give a rat's ass one way or another. I'm just trying to help make things clearer.
If you want unclear rules keep it the way it's worded.
wink
Kevin
PS: I also agree with Rich in that a fighter should never be allowed to move faster than they're "supposed" to. The way the rules are worded now they can move with a ship they're assigned to, and then theoretically move up to another six hexes to intercept. CSP flgiths should never be allowed to move more than 10 hexes per turn (assuming normal fighter movement). I like the concept. As stated it just needs some work.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

underling wrote:

I also agree with Rich in that a fighter should never be allowed to move faster than they're "supposed" to. The way the rules are worded now they can move with a ship they're assigned to, and then theoretically move up to another six hexes to intercept. CSP flgiths should never be allowed to move more than 10 hexes per turn (assuming normal fighter movement). I like the concept. As stated it just needs some work.

Actually I was merely making an observation about possible game effects there, not stating a desire for change.  Myself, I'm perfectly willing to assume that fighters can manage higher speeds when on CSP if they need to.  Maybe they carry extra fuel, or booster engines, or the tight coordination with the ship's navigation systems lets them go faster than they could safely travel normally, or any of a dozen other PSB rationalizations.

OTOH, having hyperfast ships have to slow down to avoid outrunning their CSPs might be amusing too.

Rich

Re: Combat Space Patrol

underling wrote:
cricket wrote:

The proposed rules are worded correctly, in that a flight on CSP must be "stationed" around a particular ship. However, I'll have to disagree with you-- I don't see why a flight shouldn't be allowed to provide cover to nearby vessels, albeit with reduced efficiency (thus the roll for success).

The following is the way it's worded.

Fighters on CSP do not move in fighters phase and cannot attack ships. They are instead allocated to a ship to help defend it. The fighter flight can only be allocated to a ship within the fighters normal move and is immediately placed with the ship. The fighters are considered to be in the same hex as the ship but for convenience the flight may be placed adjacent. Pick an appropriate marker to designate the flight on CSP.

Now, the above to me most definitely implies that a CSP flight is assigned to defend a specific ship. If you want to allow them to defend any ship then simply add a sentence or two stating that. I don't really give a rat's ass one way or another. I'm just trying to help make things clearer.
If you want unclear rules keep it the way it's worded.
wink
Kevin
PS: I also agree with Rich in that a fighter should never be allowed to move faster than they're "supposed" to. The way the rules are worded now they can move with a ship they're assigned to, and then theoretically move up to another six hexes to intercept. CSP flgiths should never be allowed to move more than 10 hexes per turn (assuming normal fighter movement). I like the concept. As stated it just needs some work.

I agree the wording was unclear. I have changed it in the post above to clarify.

As for fighters moving faster than normal. I feel this is a necessary abstraction to keep the rules simple. As a fighter flight on CSP can only react and not proactively engage and it must land and relaunch to change modes, it would be difficult to gain advantage from the potential faster move.

One tactic I suppose could be to build a fast escort, assign CSP flights and then it could zip around providing CSP cover where needed by the fleet. That does not particularly ofend me either.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Hello everyone,

I have been reading with interest the ideas about CSP.  During WW2, the major aircraft-carrier using fleets had Combat Air Patrol to provide cover for their ships.  Earlier, several have written:

"...a flight on CSP must be "stationed" around a particular ship. However, I'll have to disagree with you-- I don't see why a flight shouldn't be allowed to provide cover to nearby vessels, albeit with reduced efficiency (thus the roll for success)..."

This type of event occurred during the Battle of Midway 65 years ago between the Japanese and the USA Navies.  When the CAP over the USS Enterprise observed the USS Yorktown under attack, some planes  rushed to help.  But they were unable to arrive in time to disrupt the attack (they may have rolled low on their dice<LOL>).  However, the  few Japanese planes that attempted to attack USS Enterprise and USS Hornet were shot down.  This historical event, and others from the Pacific War, seem to follow Starmada CSP rules.  (!)

Steven Gilchrist

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Ironchicken wrote:

As for fighters moving faster than normal. I feel this is a necessary abstraction to keep the rules simple. As a fighter flight on CSP can only react and not proactively engage and it must land and relaunch to change modes, it would be difficult to gain advantage from the potential faster move.

One tactic I suppose could be to build a fast escort, assign CSP flights and then it could zip around providing CSP cover where needed by the fleet. That does not particularly ofend me either.

Indeed. The drawbacks (only moving with the escorted ship, only being able to react to opposing flights AFTER having revealed your position) certainly outweigh the benefit of potentially getting up to an "extra" six hexes of movement. At the same time, I don't want to encourage abuse, so a rule limiting the escorted ship to a speed of <10 is reasonable.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Combat Space Patrol

cricket wrote:
Ironchicken wrote:

As for fighters moving faster than normal. I feel this is a necessary abstraction to keep the rules simple. As a fighter flight on CSP can only react and not proactively engage and it must land and relaunch to change modes, it would be difficult to gain advantage from the potential faster move.

One tactic I suppose could be to build a fast escort, assign CSP flights and then it could zip around providing CSP cover where needed by the fleet. That does not particularly ofend me either.

Indeed. The drawbacks (only moving with the escorted ship, only being able to react to opposing flights AFTER having revealed your position) certainly outweigh the benefit of potentially getting up to an "extra" six hexes of movement. At the same time, I don't want to encourage abuse, so a rule limiting the escorted ship to a speed of <10 is reasonable.

What about fast fighters?  Might be better to word it such that is cannot move faster than any escorting fighters can go, else it loses the escort  and the fighters do not move thus losing a turn of movement and/or activities.

Yes, you do want to limit the movement of the escorted ships.  Otherwise it's easily abused.  I have a speed 20, hull 2 ship.  I'll bring in  carriers to have many fighter flights (I could even make them slow fighters to make them cheaper), have them escort the lone speed 20 ship using 40 movement points into the enemy fleet (doubling engines), and suddenly the enemy has to deal with massive numbers of fighters while the enemy carrier(s) won't be even in spinal mount range (and it's moving away).  The enemy ships would have a turn of fire upon the fighters, but at that movement rate I could probably have picked a good place to move to that the enemy might not have many weapons facing it.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

GamingGlen wrote:

Yes, you do want to limit the movement of the escorted ships.  Otherwise it's easily abused.  I have a speed 20, hull 2 ship.  I'll bring in  carriers to have many fighter flights (I could even make them slow fighters to make them cheaper), have them escort the lone speed 20 ship using 40 movement points into the enemy fleet (doubling engines), and suddenly the enemy has to deal with massive numbers of fighters while the enemy carrier(s) won't be even in spinal mount range (and it's moving away).  The enemy ships would have a turn of fire upon the fighters, but at that movement rate I could probably have picked a good place to move to that the enemy might not have many weapons facing it.

No, this is not an abuse because the CSP fighters may not engage ships, they may only react to fighters ending their movement within 6 hexes of the host ship. In addition if the 2 point ship is killed andthere are no other ships within 10 hexes the CSP flights are returned to the carrier making them vulnerable or lost if no carrier remains. Because CSP is a defensive only mechanism, zooming around at 20 does not actually generate any benefit.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

Ironchicken wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

Yes, you do want to limit the movement of the escorted ships.  Otherwise it's easily abused.  I have a speed 20, hull 2 ship.  I'll bring in  carriers to have many fighter flights (I could even make them slow fighters to make them cheaper), have them escort the lone speed 20 ship using 40 movement points into the enemy fleet (doubling engines), and suddenly the enemy has to deal with massive numbers of fighters while the enemy carrier(s) won't be even in spinal mount range (and it's moving away).  The enemy ships would have a turn of fire upon the fighters, but at that movement rate I could probably have picked a good place to move to that the enemy might not have many weapons facing it.

No, this is not an abuse because the CSP fighters may not engage ships, they may only react to fighters ending their movement within 6 hexes of the host ship. In addition if the 2 point ship is killed andthere are no other ships within 10 hexes the CSP flights are returned to the carrier making them vulnerable or lost if no carrier remains. Because CSP is a defensive only mechanism, zooming around at 20 does not actually generate any benefit.

They can stop escorting, right?  So after the turn they get this big movement boost they stop escorting and attack the enemy ships as regular fighters. 

They HAVE to return to the carrier if their escort is destroyed?  Are they teleported to a carrier immediately?  WHY?

Re: Combat Space Patrol

GamingGlen wrote:
Ironchicken wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

Yes, you do want to limit the movement of the escorted ships.  Otherwise it's easily abused.  I have a speed 20, hull 2 ship.  I'll bring in  carriers to have many fighter flights (I could even make them slow fighters to make them cheaper), have them escort the lone speed 20 ship using 40 movement points into the enemy fleet (doubling engines), and suddenly the enemy has to deal with massive numbers of fighters while the enemy carrier(s) won't be even in spinal mount range (and it's moving away).  The enemy ships would have a turn of fire upon the fighters, but at that movement rate I could probably have picked a good place to move to that the enemy might not have many weapons facing it.

No, this is not an abuse because the CSP fighters may not engage ships, they may only react to fighters ending their movement within 6 hexes of the host ship. In addition if the 2 point ship is killed andthere are no other ships within 10 hexes the CSP flights are returned to the carrier making them vulnerable or lost if no carrier remains. Because CSP is a defensive only mechanism, zooming around at 20 does not actually generate any benefit.

They can stop escorting, right?  So after the turn they get this big movement boost they stop escorting and attack the enemy ships as regular fighters. 

They HAVE to return to the carrier if their escort is destroyed?  Are they teleported to a carrier immediately?  WHY?

To "stop escorting" they have to return to a carrier, land, and refit with anti-shipping weapons (or somesuch technobabble).  So all the movement boost is going to do is get them farther away from the carriers they need to land on.

I don't think they magically teleport back to their carrier when the ship they're escorting dies either, they should have to use normal movement rules.  The "WHY?" is spelled out above, because they need to rearm (or be reassigned to a new CSP target).

About the only thing a super-fast escort with CSP will be good for is for positioning your defensive fighters where they're needed each turn, and maybe establishing a "threat zone" enemy fighters need to avoid...and even then you're taking a chance on the escort being destroyed by ship fire and leaving your CSPs out of action for a turn or two.  Might also be good for dragging fighters past a really deep mine belt, but then what do you do with them afterwards?

The rules do need to spell out what an ex-CSP flight can actually do while it's slogging back to a carrier for reassignment.  I assume they can't initiate offensive action, but do they defend themselves normally if jumped in a dogfight?

Rich

Re: Combat Space Patrol

hundvig wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

They HAVE to return to the carrier if their escort is destroyed?  Are they teleported to a carrier immediately?  WHY?

I don't think they magically teleport back to their carrier when the ship they're escorting dies either, they should have to use normal movement rules.  The "WHY?" is spelled out above, because they need to rearm (or be reassigned to a new CSP target).

No, when their escorted ship dies, the CSP dies with it. 

Why you ask? 

According to the way Dan laid it out, the CSP is in the same hex as  the escorted ship (whether the miniature is sitting beside it or not).  Also, the CSP moves with the ship (can't move during the fighter turn).  Well, according to rule 4.3.1, when a ship dies it creates an explosion counter.  And, according to rule 5.3.4, when a fighter enters a hex with an explosion counter, it is immediately destroyed.

Therefore, when the escorted ship dies, so does the CSP, end of problem.

Jimmy

Re: Combat Space Patrol

You mean they go boom if they're not smart enough to scoot to the winds when they see the ship taking catastrophic damage? wink

In the case when a ship is not destroyed and the CSP is returning to the carrier for reassignment, the CSP flight may take no other action other than returning to the carrier...

after all, as been said, they need to rearm appropriately and recharge their life-support systems and fuel cells. wink

Just my interpretation of the discussion so far.

Re: Combat Space Patrol

nimrodd wrote:
hundvig wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

They HAVE to return to the carrier if their escort is destroyed?  Are they teleported to a carrier immediately?  WHY?

I don't think they magically teleport back to their carrier when the ship they're escorting dies either, they should have to use normal movement rules.  The "WHY?" is spelled out above, because they need to rearm (or be reassigned to a new CSP target).

No, when their escorted ship dies, the CSP dies with it. 

Why you ask? 

According to the way Dan laid it out, the CSP is in the same hex as  the escorted ship (whether the miniature is sitting beside it or not).  Also, the CSP moves with the ship (can't move during the fighter turn).  Well, according to rule 4.3.1, when a ship dies it creates an explosion counter.  And, according to rule 5.3.4, when a fighter enters a hex with an explosion counter, it is immediately destroyed.

Therefore, when the escorted ship dies, so does the CSP, end of problem.

Jimmy

I was under the impression that fighters only "enter" a hex during their movement phase, and aren't killed by explosions popping up in their hex at other times...ie, they get a chance to leave before dying.

If they really do die instantly, I'm going to have to experiment with uber-cheap unarmed, undefended one-hull "ships" that deploy in a two or three hex deep "ring" around my real hulls, forcing the fighters to either stop and sweep them aside (during which time my ship guns can pound them) or move into their hexes to attack my ships (at which point I'll blow them up myself and kill all the fighters in the hex...after they attack, of course).  Wonder how many I can get for the price of a single fighter squadron?

Come to think of it, even if fighters *do* get a chance to leave an explosion hex before dying, that's still a threat.  If the "suicide escort" ring is at least two hexes deep around my real ships (all stacked in one hex, of course), I can make explosions in the fighters' hex and all adjacent hexes, and they'll die horribly as soon as they try to move.

Ick.  Don't care for that much.

Rich