Topic: Grand Fleets WW2

kevinsmith67206 wrote:

> 1. Have some of the WW2 ship data for US/UK/Japanese/German
> or Italian ships been converted to the Grand Fleets format?
> If so, is it available?
> ==========
>
> I believe I've converted all of the US and Japanese ships
> necessary to refight any of the Guadalcanal naval battles,
> with probably a few extra thrown in. I've also done a few
> British and German ships (enough for the Bismarck
> encounters), but I don't think I've done any Italian ships yet.
>
> ==========
> I started my own conversion but it takes an incredible amount
> of time ...
> ==========
>
> Why yes, yes it does.
> big_smile
>
> ==========
> 2. When looking at the gun data, it seems almost impossible
> to penetrate BB armor at long range: even a 16" gun would
> need a dice roll of 10 to penetrate a belt armour of 14 at
> long range. Is this normal for plunging fire during WW2?
> ==========
>
> I'm not sure.
> It's possible we were a little conservative in our mechanics.
> We used an average of the deck and belt values, with the
> logic that plunging fire would hit either the deck or belt
> roughly half the time.
> Geometry shows this to be the case, but you could also make
> the argument that adding in the superstructure would cause
> the non-belt portions of the ship to be hit a little more
> often. I've thought that averaging the deck and belt, and
> then averaging that result with the deck again might be a
> little more appropriate.
> For example, say a battleship has a belt of 14 and a deck of
> 8, in game terms. The second belt value is then 11. Using the
> optional method the second belt value would actually be the
> average of 11 and
> 8, which would be 10 (rounding up).   
> The WW II games I've played have been satisfactory, but I
> haven't used a lot of battleships yet.
> One thing you can do to open things up a little is to use the
> straight deck armor value for plunging fire. I believe a
> friend of mine has played the Bismarck scenario that way and
> it works fine.
> This may swing things a little too much the other direction; i.e.
> make plunging fire a little too effective. But you'll get
> quicker results.
> smile
>
> ==========
> 3. I tested successfully a few additional die-roll modifiers
> that are usually found in other naval rule sets:
> crossing T: +1 for gunfire
> smoke screen: -1 for firing from/into a hex with smokescreen
> except if radar-equipped. No fire allowed through a
> smokescreen hex except if radar-equipped.
> night fire or poor weather: -2
> first broadside at target: -1
> target already hit by same ship: +1
> threading torpedoes: -1 for torpedo attacks

Hmm.

I find it interesting that other rules sets would give a +1 to-hit modifier for crossing the "T". If anything, I would think it harder to hit a target end-on; also, the benefit is reflected in GF by use of the end armor values.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

kevinsmith67206 wrote:

> ==========
> 2. When looking at the gun data, it seems almost impossible
> to penetrate BB armor at long range: even a 16" gun would
> need a dice roll of 10 to penetrate a belt armour of 14 at
> long range. Is this normal for plunging fire during WW2?
> ==========

The only WWII BB battle I've tried is Denmark Strait, and I found the problem at medium range.  Prince of Wales' deck is thin enough for Bismark to penetrate at long, and Bismark's penetration is great enough to get through the side belt at short, but as long as Prince of Wales can stay side-on at medium range, she's invulnerable.  My guess was that perhaps the armour model wasn't really appropriate for really thick modern armour.  Either that, I suppose, or Prince of Wales really was invulnerable to Bismark at medium range.

cricket wrote:

I find it interesting that other rules sets would give a +1 to-hit modifier for crossing the "T". If anything, I would think it harder to hit a target end-on; also, the benefit is reflected in GF by use of the end armor values.

I'm not so sure about WWII, but in WWI, bearing was much easier to determine than range.  So the extra depth of an end-on target was more help than the extra width of a side-on target would be.  On the other hand, the range to an end-on target would probably be changing at a greater rate than that to a side-on target would be, and rapid range changes weren't handled all that well be WWI fire control.  So my completely unscientific and inexpert opinion is that it would be a wash.

(The only "house" modifier I've lifted from other rules is -1 for fixed torpedo tubes.  I really want to discourage battle lines from being sent on torpedo runs.)

Speaking of end armour values, I've wondered why you chose to use the end belt value, rather than the bulkhead value.  Looking at the end arc, I first assumed that the bulkhead value was what you meant.  (I had to go back and correct the first couple of conversions I worked out.)

-Eric

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

Hello everyone!
     Most capital ships have an "immune zone"  where their armor protects from them from their own guns.  This 'zone is a between two ranges;  [for example, between 20,00yds and 25,00 yds]  where their guns could not penetrate their own side or deck armor.  Also, the turret armor cannot be penetrated.  This is normal.  Almost every Battleship, battlecruiser, and even cruisers have such a zone from their own weapons, and others of the same size.   Needless to say, that zone is smaller for battlecruisers and cruisers, and larger for battleships.  It will probably occur in almost every case at medium range.   
     Note that ships with bigger guns, such as the USA's WW2 battleships that were protected from 16"guns will have a bigger zone of immunity against 14", 12", etc. guns.  As can be seen from weapon charts, their armor and turrets should be immune to 8"guns.   So what does one do?  Get closer to the enemy ships to punch thru their side armor  (or get farther away to be able to penetrate deck armor <LOL>).
     Steven Gilchrist; Jacksonville, Fla, USA

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

The issue with Grand Fleets and immune zones is that Grand Fleets is just a bit too abstract for them to make sense.  I've only looked at one WWII capital ship engagement (Denmark Strait), and ships either have no zone in which they are immune from the enemy's guns, or the immune zone is the entire middle range.  This magnifies small differences between ships. 

(Please note that I do not consider the abstraction in Grand Fleets to be a  "problem".  A game design needs a particular level of abstraction, and I think Grand Fleets has a very nice one.)

Hmmm ... perhaps the un-named chart that is used for hitting with modifiers of -3 or worse (I think of it as the "lucky hits chart") could also be used somehow as a "lucky penetration" chart.

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

Considering that the Prince of Wales was one of the most heavily-armored battleships ever built (Second only to the Yamato, I believe), I'm not surprised that there are penetration issues.

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

ericrrrm wrote:

(The only "house" modifier I've lifted from other rules is -1 for fixed torpedo tubes.  I really want to discourage battle lines from being sent on torpedo runs.)
/quote]

Huh. Missed this when it was posted a year ago... smile

How has this "house" rule worked out for you?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

Everybody has loved the -1 for fixed tubes! (I have, though, only played one game that wasn't solo.) big_smile

Note that I called it my only "house modifier."  My "house rules" are more extensive:

First, since I don't play on a hex map, I've changed the firing arcs so that A, B, E, and F are 45 degrees, while C and D are 90 degrees.

I've indicated torpedo launch arcs on my ship data cards, just like the gun firing arcs are indicated.  Rather than make players (um ... myself) choose an arc, arcs are fixed by the launching ship's orientation at the time of launch.

I put down a marker I've made that shows all the arcs, so the opposing player (myself, again) knows torpedos are in the water, but not the target.  This evil is necessary since I've cut the turn length in half (six minutes), giving many torpedos, even in WWI, a multi-turn run.  When the target is an arc the torpedo could have been launched into, and at a distance appropriate for how many turns the torpedo has been running (which I have listed on my ship data cards), then I roll for a hit.

Oh, and I list torpedo mounts on the ship damage track, just like turrets are listed.

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

ericrrrm wrote:

First, since I don't play on a hex map, I've changed the firing arcs so that A, B, E, and F are 45 degrees, while C and D are 90 degrees.

Reasonable enough.

I've indicated torpedo launch arcs on my ship data cards, just like the gun firing arcs are indicated.  Rather than make players (um ... myself) choose an arc, arcs are fixed by the launching ship's orientation at the time of launch.

A good change for solo play, but I like the existing system for PVP games.

Oh, and I list torpedo mounts on the ship damage track, just like turrets are listed.

Not a bad idea...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Grand Fleets WW2

I'm sure the existing system plays fine.  I suspect that within every naval gamer, there is a personal topedo system waiting to get out!   smile

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