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mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Nitpick with fighters
Okay, I understand the reason for keeping fighters reasonably simple, but one thing I've never understood is their speed. A fighter has 10 MPs. Period. Even if the faction has a -2 in engines, and thus can barely reach 4 MPs, the fighters are just as speedy as if the faction had +2 in engines.
Does anyone else feel the same way?
That is an interesting point.
However, any mods you do because of low tech have to be mirred in the higher techs too.
IOW, if each -1 equates to a -2 in speed for fighters, then a +1 should be an increase of +2, right? so if you have a +2 in engines, then your fighters get to fly 14 hexes.
seems like the situation would get worse with that kind of mod.
That is an interesting point.
However, any mods you do because of low tech have to be mirred in the higher techs too.
IOW, if each -1 equates to a -2 in speed for fighters, then a +1 should be an increase of +2, right? so if you have a +2 in engines, then your fighters get to fly 14 hexes.
seems like the situation would get worse with that kind of mod.
Not if you lowered the fighter base speed.
Consider:
E Tech -2: fighter speed 4
E Tech -1: fighter speed 6
E Tech 0: fighter speed 8
E Tech +1: fighter speed 10
E Tech +2 : fighter speed 12
I suggest we make that a house rule from now on. 'twill prevent the overwhelming authority of 120 fighters attack all at once.
Now I suggest that we tie the fighter upgrades to tech level somehow as well, like you can't have an interceptor unless you have a +1 tech in weapons
I think we could get a list together, no?
You can get fighters more complicated REAL fast -
- Discretionary 'Power' - use it to add another shot or to power a 'shield'
- Additional weapons as TL goes up
- older tech has a 'misfire chance'
- more damage before going 'BOOM!'
I can't recall the Starmada X rules too well right now, but I'm sure OTHER stuff could be added. Maybe one race doesn't go faster as TL increases, but instead - they get tougher or add more weapons.
I have to say that I think that if your faction is primi-tech (-2, -1) then yes your fighters should be far less effective relative to a higher tech race.
EX: No way a bi-plane from WWI is going to take out an F-18 today except with a "Golden BB" shot or ramming.
I think going with the slower speed is quite adequete if you assume that the fighter as presented in starmada is a Tech level 0 machine.
This would then predicate that lower tech fighters are probably slower, not as lethal, can't take as much damage, have less EW options, may not be as maneuvarable, and have less endurance. Whereas a higher tech Faction (+1-2) would have benefits appreciably greater in these areas.
Now it just remains for someone to work out an elegantly simple system (Starmada style) that works and is not cumbersome to deal with.
And there I was thinking I was just talking cr*p as usual...:D
Personally, I don't see the problem, but that doesn't mean it can't be addressed... 
I'm wondering why the suggestion of +/-1 TL = +/-2 fighter speed. Wouldn't the following make more sense?:
TL -2 = Speed 8
TL -1 = Speed 9
TL 0 = Speed 10
TL +1 = Speed 11
TL +2 = Speed 12
Not enough difference to make a difference...
Here's MY take FWIW
You may not select a custom fighter flight unless the ship class carrying the fighter flight has a modified tech level (or better) to support that custom flight. E.g. if you want Shadow Fighters, then the ship carrying those fighters must have Shields TL of +2.
Customizations independent of Tech Level:
Small
Slow
Large
Shields
TL +2
Shadow
Engines
TL -2
Move 4 hexes
Starships have no penalty attacking fighters
TL -1
Move 6 hexes
Starships have no penalty attacking fighters
TL 0
Move 8 hexes
TL +1
Move 10 Hexes
Fast
Interceptor
Extended Range
TL +2
Move 12 Hexes
Weapons
TL -2
Fighters do not halve shields
TL -1
TL 0
TL +1
Bomber
TL +2
Assault
Ignore shields
Sp. Eq.
TL 0
Extended Range
TL +1
Bomber
Heavy
Interceptor
TL +2
Assault
So does this mean that you would support a reduction/increase in the abilities of other equipment that functions like fighters? i.e. Marines and Drones. It could get real hard at lower tech levels to insert a marine boarding party or shoot someone with a very slow drone.
Wouldn't a tech based modifier to the Fighter Bay, like the other special equipment, impose enough penalty/bonus on fighters by limiting/increasing the number that you could bring?
Can't you just mandate that lower tech fighters take the slow and or small special abilities?
I would rather see customized drones added to the rules than all of this fighter complexity.
So does this mean that you would support a reduction/increase in the abilities of other equipment that functions like fighters? i.e. Marines and Drones.
I would rather see customized drones added to the rules than all of this fighter complexity.
Hadn't thought about that at all.
Drones are more like missiles than fightes and Marines are drones with a "bonus".
I suppose I could be convinced that weapons tech levels could affect Drones and Missiles, but honestly, I don't care too much about them, as they are one-shot and I haven't seen them tip the battle one way or t'other.
Personally, I don't see the problem, but that doesn't mean it can't be addressed...
I just think the variable speed fighters (more so than just fast and slow) makes them feel more cool. It fits my asthetic, if you will, rather than addresses "a problem".
I'm wondering why the suggestion of +/-1 TL = +/-2 fighter speed. Wouldn't the following make more sense?:
TL -2 = Speed 8
TL -1 = Speed 9
TL 0 = Speed 10
TL +1 = Speed 11
TL +2 = Speed 12
I do not see enough variability there to please the aforementioned asthetic.
You may not select a custom fighter flight unless the ship class carrying the fighter flight has a modified tech level (or better) to support that custom flight. E.g. if you want Shadow Fighters, then the ship carrying those fighters must have Shields TL of +2.
Customizations independent of Tech Level:
Small
Slow
LargeShields
TL +2<<<SNIP>>>
I see where you are going with this.... But I think the overall tech level combo-limitations on fighters may be a bit much. Or maybe it is that I do not see the same correlations between the techs and abilities? hhmmm...
Not sure. On the surface I like the existing VBAM tech approach, but in a pure Starmada game environment there may be value in this line of thought.
Personally I consider fighters, battlesats, marines/security forces and drones to be nothing more than very tiny little starships.
So in that context why can't we (or the powers that be) come up with a mini sxca that allows you to customize them and then spits out a CR and SU rating for them.
Tech levels would modify (as they do full size starships) what you could put in them.
Hence, if you are primitech (-2) and you want a heavy fighter it is going to be slow because after you add in the "heavy" equipment mod (armor plate, limited shielding, call it what you will) you are not going to have much space left to put in a hot engine.
On the other hand, if you are Eldertech (+2) and you want a heavy fighter, it will probably have enough space left over after making it heavy to be fast, tough, evasive, well shielded/armored, etc. Vastly superior to primitech or Midtech races.
In a nutshell higher tech in SX means more stuff in the same package, this should apply across the board, better fighters, better drones, better marines, better security teams/systems, battle sats, etc.
I do understand, very well, the differences between game playability (keep it simple) and game realism (yeah game system ABC is detailed to the max but virtually unplayable in less than a day or days).
StarmadaX has what I feel to be a very fine balance between those two.
However, as a set of optional rules, there isn't any reason you can't custom build the little stuff too. Dan has a great system in place already it's simply a matter of scale....and a new subset of optional rules....and a couple of new mini-SXCA's (while excel is an easy program to work with, that doesn't mean the work is easy).
Starmada provides virtually limitless options at the starship level, and it can provide the same options for the smaller level components.
Roy
Why not treat Fighters, Drones and Marines (Fighter-like objects) as weapon systems with customizable stats like other weapons? That way you can adjust the stats to reflect your own milieu.
Fighter-like objects are rated for Speed, Hits to-kill (HTK), Range, To-hit, ROF, PEN, and DMG. All Fighter-like objects have the special ability of Halves Shields.
Speed is the number of hexes that the Fighter-like objects can travel each turn, (6, 8, 10, 12, 14)
HTK is the number of damage points each of the Fighter-like objects in the group can take. (1, 2, 3)
HTK Modifier: 1 = 1.0, 2 = 1.4, 3 = 2.0
Range is the distance from their target that the Fighter-like objects may fire from. (1, 2, 3)
Range Modifier: 1 = 1.0, 2 = 1.3, 3 = 1.7
Marines can never have more than Range 1.
To-Hit is the die roll needed to hit the Fighter-like object's target (3+, 4+, 5+)
To-Hit Modifier: 3+ = 0.67, 4+ = 0.5, 5+ =0.33
ROF is the number of times each member of a Fighter-like object group may attempt to hit. (1, 2, 3)
PEN is the number of shield rolls that each hit makes (1, 2, 3)
DMG is the number of damage rolls that each successful PEN roll makes on its target. (1, 2, 3)
The ORat and DRat calculation for a group of Fighter-like objects is:
Base Number x Speed x HTK Mod x Range Mod x To-Hit Mod x (ROF + 1) x PEN x DMG
Base Numbers:
Fighter = 7.5
Drones = 3
Marines = 6
Fighters:
A standard fighter is speed 10, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 5+, ROF 1, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 7.5 x 10 x 1 x 1 x 0.33 x (1 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 50
A fast fighter is speed 12, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 5+, ROF 1, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 7.5 x 12 x 1 x 1 x 0.33 x (1 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 60
This is in line with the customized fighter rules in Starmada F.2.4
An assault fighter is speed 10, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 5+, ROF 2, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 7.5 x 10 x 1 x 1 x 0.33 x (2 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 75
This is very close to the customized fighter rules in Starmada F.2.1
So you could customize a flight to be speed 14, HTK 2, Range 1, To-hit 3+, ROF 2, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 7.5 x 14 x 1.4 x 1 x 0.67 x (2 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 294
That is one expensive but powerful fighter group.
Drones:
A standard Drone is speed 10, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 4+, ROF 1, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 3 x 10 x 1 x 1 x 0.5 x (1 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 30
A fast Drone is speed 12, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 4+, ROF 1, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 3 x 12 x 1 x 1 x 0.5 x (1 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 36
An assault Drone is speed 10, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 4+, ROF 2, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 3 x 10 x 1 x 1 x 0.5 x (2 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 45
You could customize a flight to be speed 14, HTK 2, Range 1, To-hit 3+, ROF 2, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 3 x 14 x 1.4 x 1 x 0.67 x (2 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 117.6
Again, an expensive but powerful Drone group.
Marines:
A standard Marine is speed 10, HTK 1, Range 1, To-hit 5+, ROF 1, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 6 x 10 x 1 x 1 x 0.33 x (1 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 40
If you want real fast Marines that hit well, speed 14, HTK 2, Range 1, To-hit 3+, ROF 2, PEN 1, DMG 1, Halves Shields
Or 6 x 14 x 1.4 x 1 x 0.67 x (2 + 1) x 1 x 1 = 235.2
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