• Registered: 2006-09-06
  • Posts: 99

Topic: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

I bought VBAM several days ago and I was really looking forward to it. I wanted to play my beloved Starmada with campaign rules. At least this was my intention in the beginning.

I expected a similar game like Sovereign Stars but maybe a little bit more options like intelmissions and artifacts etc.

Now after several hours reading through the VBAM rules, I am really disappointed. This game is much too complicated. As a minor problem the rules are not that clearly organized as it is usual in the wargame industry. Comparing to the more precise Avalon Hill rulebooks or those of GMT it is difficult to find a VBAM rule again in the text which seems endless with 124 pages. Often they explain rules for things which appear much later in the rules without referencing on which pages or which chapters you can find it.

There is not even an index or a glossary!

But the major problem is that it is really too complex for my liking. Its the opposite to starmada. Starmada is clear and easy to use while maintaining incredible depth. You can explain a newbie the game in several minutes. Not so in VBAM. Maybe it has depth too, but the learning curve puts me off.

Has anybody ever tried to use this complex system in conjunction with Starmada? Or as a standalone game? :cry:

PS: additionally I bought the special VBAM bundle in rpgnow, so I unnecessarly spent 70 Bucks for this system. Annoying.

  • Registered: 2006-03-23
  • Posts: 241

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

We use VBAM in our local campaign here in Orlando. It is much easier to use than what we were using before (Starfire). Of course we came at Starmada through VBAM not VBAM through Starmada as you seem to have done.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

I have dabbled in VBAM quite a bit over the last year to year-and-half, including helping with the VBAM Starmada Edition book some and putting out my own Starmada/VBAM setting book.



I do agree that the main book could be laid out a bit better.
OTOH, it is a different type of game from Starmada, requiring the ability to be much more detailed for full campaign simulations which gives it some heft. So while the VBAM curve does seem daunting at first, I have found it to be surprisingly simple at its base once you get into it. There are a lot of optional rules that can really make a game as detailed as you want. Sometimes it can be hard to separate those levels, though.

IMO, for what it accomplishes, I think it is pretty elegant and not too hard to manage once you get into it.

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 859

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

Exactly.

I found the whole thing confusing, but that was because that my mode of reading a rulebook is to flick through and read the passages that come to mind. After a few days I will be able to understand it.

Give it a few days or weeks, and you'll look back in embarrassment at this post...:D (hopefully...)

  • Registered: 2006-09-06
  • Posts: 99

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

Many thanks all for the reply.

It was not my intention to offend anybody (and of course also not the users of VBAM) with my somewhat emotional post above. If a player is able to get along with this game, this is fine. For me its too complex.

After reading through VBAM I took my Sov. Stars handbook out, browsed through it and thought instantly: Hey this is it. I will add some additional rules for the setting I want to simulate. (maybe even some from VBAM so was not totally unnecessary to buy it) But the basics will be Sov. Stars.

When I was younger I played complex games like vbam. I was an Avalon Hill fan and played ASL,  Gettisburgh etc. which often last several days per scenario. But I dont have the nerves and the time to play such games anymore. Today I prefer games like Starmada which have simple rules but are difficult to master.

  • Registered: 2005-03-31
  • Posts: 20

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

You could always join one of the training games: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/vbam_training/

  • Registered: 2005-04-03
  • Posts: 68

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

The writing and format of the Campaign Guide could be improved upon, and I have talked to Jay about that. There is the possibility that, sometime next year, we may begin work on a revised edition that would take the rules and reorganize them for clarity and integrate all of the existing errata accrued up to this point.

It sounds like the VBAM campaign system is probably overkill for what you were looking for. It is far simpler to use than Imperial Starfire or something of that fair, but is more involved than the most simplistic campaign systems (that boil everything down to simple resource generation based on zone control).

I think it is the reality of the beast that each set of campaign rules will not fit every single player. That is part of the reason that VBAM doesn't try to force every single rule imaginable upon the player. It gives you the "skeleton" on which you can add or subtract detail. It also provides different ideas for how you could handle elements in other campaigns or rule sets. To that end, most campaign rules can give you neat ideas of what you can do in other systems that you are preferential to.

The VBAM Campaign Guide was the first book that we put together, and so it does lack a few of the elements that our later books include. When we do get to the point of doing a revised edition of the book, we would appreciate any and all comments from customers -- especially those that have had problems with using the book -- so that we can correct it in the updated version.

As for if anyone has ever used VBAM for a Starmada campaign, I have played through a few, including a current solo campaign. Here are a few of the campaign diaries from VBAM/SX campaigns that I have played:

Twilight's Shadow: The Cardassian Campaign
http://planetside.firenebula.com/sx/cardassia.zip

The Fringe Campaign
http://planetside.firenebula.com/sx/fringe.zip

The Nova Campaign: Birth of the Terran Federation
http://planetside.firenebula.com/sx/nova.zip

The Solar Federation Campaign
http://planetside.firenebula.com/sx/sol … ation2.zip

-Tyrel

  • Registered: 2006-09-06
  • Posts: 99

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

Tyrel Lohr wrote:

The writing and format of the Campaign Guide could be improved upon, and I have talked to Jay about that. There is the possibility that, sometime next year, we may begin work on a revised edition that would take the rules and reorganize them for clarity and integrate all of the existing errata accrued up to this point.-Tyrel

Many thanks that you take time to write an answer to my post above. I think it would be necessary to improve and reorganize the rules of VBAM. The problem is that the rules as they are written now could be a problem for newbies to understand.

Some below points I think could be useful if I may post it here

-examples. There are examples in the game, but too few IMO. Some graphical pictures (eg. how jump lanes look like and movements on them are conducted) and charts (eg. a chart which details all intelmissions with short descriptions on one single page, or a scenario chart which lays out when each of the different scenario begins and when it ends)

-the main rules begins much too late. I have to read through 40 pages of different rules for this and for that (many of them which I am not sure if they are important at all), till I finally am able to begin the movement/combat chapter. It should be possible to begin with the main rules at the beginning of the book on page 3-5 and not somewhere on page 40. I dont want to read 3 hours through minor rules before I even know how to move a ship or how to combat.

-for newbies or for people which want to play a simpler version of VBAM you should make a basic version of it, with 10-20 pages to read. (maybe the complexity level of sovereign stars or a little bit higher but not much higher) There could then be a medium version with the more crunchy rules (different scenarios, ground bombardment) and an advanced version with intelmissions, raid rules, squadron rules etc. for the hardcore fans.



Tyrel Lohr wrote:

It sounds like the VBAM campaign system is probably overkill for what you were looking for. It is far simpler to use than Imperial Starfire or something of that fair, but is more involved than the most simplistic campaign systems (that boil everything down to simple resource generation based on zone control).-Tyrel

Maybe VBAM is simpler than this "starfire" game but its too complex for the occasional player like myself. In these days I dont have the time anymore to play games of this level (family etc.) so I prefer simpler games like Starmada, Illuminati or columbias block game series. (Eastfront etc.)
I would appreciate a simpler version of VBAM which seems quite good in its basics.


Tyrel Lohr wrote:

I think it is the reality of the beast that each set of campaign rules will not fit every single player. That is part of the reason that VBAM doesn't try to force every single rule imaginable upon the player. It gives you the "skeleton" on which you can add or subtract detail. It also provides different ideas for how you could handle elements in other campaigns or rule sets. To that end, most campaign rules can give you neat ideas of what you can do in other systems that you are preferential to.-Tyrel

This may be, but I cannot remember that you give some hint which rules are absolutely necessary for the game to function and which can be replaced or taken out completely. So the basic idea of a "skeleton" or a module system is very good. But its difficult to learn which parts of the game belong to this skeleton and which parts are just add-ons. For a experienced player of VBAM this is no prob, but for new players it is.

  • Registered: 2005-04-03
  • Posts: 68

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

The biggest pitfall in creating a "basic" version of the rules is how basic is basic? If you wanted to distill everything down all the way, you could end up chucking all of the rules and have the simplest campaign setup: rules for movement and each system provides X economic points to the owner each turn to build new ships wherever they want, ignoring shipyards, ground combat, supply, and everything else.

In order for a player to play in a VBAM Campaign, all of the core rules are necessary. If a campaign isn't using some of the rules, then they aren't necessary -- but otherwise they will be at a disadvantage because they don't know how the system works.

I will remember to try and include more examples. I am not sure how many we can add in without cutting out other material, but it will something that we will try to do.

-Tyrel

  • Registered: 2006-09-06
  • Posts: 99

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

Tyrel Lohr wrote:

The biggest pitfall in creating a "basic" version of the rules is how basic is basic?

Well, with basic I mean a light version 10-20p of the rules. Eg. Starmada is basic. Its easy to play but its not a beer and brezl game and is difficult to master. Sovereign Stars is also basic. In such a spirit should the VBAM basic version be. This would make the game attractive to more players like myself which dont have the time and the energy to study 120p of rules.

Tyrel Lohr wrote:

If you wanted to distill everything down all the way, you could end up chucking all of the rules and have the simplest campaign setup: rules for movement and each system provides X economic points to the owner each turn to build new ships wherever they want, ignoring shipyards, ground combat, supply, and everything else.

Well I could do this, but it would not be the same as if I had the official basic version I can use without beeing forced to read through the rest in order to make the right decision which rules I should use and which not. Maybe the game interests me even so much that I will integrate more and of its more complex rules in future campaigns. Now I dont have this choice. I cannot just use a basic version to try it out. I have to read all.

I think the best would be to go the conventional way many wargames go. Make a basic version, an advanced version and finally optional rules. Like Avalon Hill did with Alpha Omega or scenario modules which incorporate more and more rules in a soft way like Advanced Squad Leader.

Tyrel Lohr wrote:

I will remember to try and include more examples. I am not sure how many we can add in without cutting out other material, but it will something that we will try to do.

A wargame can never have enough examples, game helpers and charts. There is a reason behind that the most good wargames have movement and combat examples included with description and graphics.

  • Registered: 2005-04-03
  • Posts: 68

Re: VBAM - Did anyone play this game?

Looking at the Campaign Guide again, the actual core campaign rules are only about 60 pages long (Section 3), and 9 pages of that is the CSCR combat example -- so the rules aren't all that long.

I won't lie that some streamlining could be done and rules sections broken out for clarity and reference sake, but the rules themselves are not too horribly long, and most cover eventualities (as all rules systems do).

How the VBAM campaign system works, the only way you could boil things down to a lower page count would be to remove entire sections of rules, namely removing the Tech, Intel, the CSCR Strategic Combat Resolver, and Orbital Bombardment. Rip those out and the rules that are left are pretty minimal: Economics, Movement, Construction, Morale and maybe Ground Combat. In essence, you are one step away from just assigning each system a set per-turn resource generation value and going from there. Distilling the rules down to that point would fit them in about 10 pages, but it wouldn't be much of a game at that point (IMHO). It is easy enough to whip together something like that fast.

Looking at Sovereign Stars again, it looks like it is mainly a distilled version of Twilight Imperium, which means it is aiming more at being a boardgame flavor than a campaign system. Similar beast, but different end of the spectrum.

The criticism is good to hear, though. What it sounds like you were looking for in a game probably isn't even close to VBAM. As mentioned, VBAM is a much closer cousin to Starfire than it is to Sovereign Stars or some of the simpler campaign systems out there.

What it sounds like you are after is a one-page system kind of like this:

Movement
Either hex based movement at 1 per turn, or jump lane based with Major Lanes (2 per turn), Minor Lanes (1 per turn), or Restricted Lanes (1 per 2 turns).

Systems/Economics
Roll d6 x 50 and assign it to each new system. This is the amount of points the system generates each turn towards new purchases.

All units are purchased using these resource points on a 1:1 basis to their point value.

Shipyards/Construction
Fighters and atmospheric ships can be built on a planet without the need of a shipyard. Larger ships require a shipyard.

Each shipyard at a planet allows an empire to build either a fixed amount of points per turn, or based on the local economy. VBAM uses the latter. For that reason, set the construction capacity of the shipyard equal to its location's resource output (ex: a shipyard at a system that produces 100 points per turn can build 100 points worth of ships per turn).

More expensive purchases can be paid for over multiple turns.

Ground Combat
As with most simple campaign systems, the best solution in this case is to use the boarding rules as a basis and have players purchase "Troops" that fit 1 Troop per Troop Bay on an assault ship. Resolving ground combat is the same as boarding.

You could also then say that 1 Vehicle Bay allows a ship to load/unload 1 Troop per turn. That would make having assaults ships with lots of Vehicle Bays desirable.


Then you could add in other abilities for your other Starmada specific equipment and away you go! As a quick rundown of quick ideas for effects:

Cargo Bays -- You could always have resource point accumulate at a planet and have to be moved via Cargo Bays, with the number of points a ship can carry being equal to 10 x Hull (for when Cargo Bays are 50% of Hull) or 10 x Military Cargo Bays (when using 100SU Cargo Bays). From experience I would recommend against this, as it adds a lot of micromanagement. It adds some flair to the campaign, sure, but the micromanagement (oi).

Construction Bay -- Turns a ship into a mobile shipyard with a construction capacity rating of 25 times the number of Construction Bays. In Starmada scenarios involving normal shipyards, you can just use Shield 0, Engine 0 units of the appropriate Hull size and Construction Bay total to represent them in combat.

Is that closer to what you were looking for, Enpeze? It is certainly far simpler, and throws out most of the more complicated VBAM rules -- mainly because the above is an entirely different beast and is simplified for those that just want to play Starmada battles and really don't want the burden of managing an interstellar empire beyond what it has to do with generating that next Starmada battle.

-Tyrel