Dan, Any further thoughts on the SU modifier for this weapon ability? In the first port of the "Other Stuff I would like to see Added to Starmada X" thread you said that your first thought would to be a SU mod of 2.1 so thats where I got the number. It looks like a pretty straight forward product of the Range-Base DMG/PEN/ROF and the Inverted Range Modifier weapon abilities.
I am designing a fleet around this ability and want to get the SU mod at least semi-official.

I have found it to be powerful as well. However, my opponent chopped me off at the knees last night by putting Stealth Generators on his ships and range 18 weapons. He had a high enough speed to stay at long range and had a sort of "Immunity zone" from which he pounded me severely. A couple of my ships got away only because he didn't have too much SU into weapons to make up for all his cool special equipment.

I think of it as a missile type weapon that accelerates all the way out to its max range, thus having more PEN power the farther out it gets. Like a RAM jet(?). Then when its fuel (whatever) is gone at its max range, it burns out.

This is accounted for, resulting in the x1.3 multiplier rather than a straight x1.

Indeed. This is the main reason why the rule on banked weapons went away.

But it's still very hard to quantify. I would think that bumping inverted range to x2 would not be a bad idea -- x3 or more would be overreacting, I think.

The effect I'm seeing is that you get a DMG 3 weapon at long range for less than you would pay for it with a normal build with anything less than a x3 modifier.  So with the cheaper weapons, you pack roughly 30% more weapons in...effectively increasing your chance to wipe out the enemy ship while it is at long range.  Adding a couple pieces of equipment in such as LRS, ECM, EWS, and/or Stealth system...and you get an even higher return for the mod. 

Most ships will likely suffer significant damage before being able to reply (if at all)...making it game even more powerful than it might seem.
With the Range Based ROF/PEN/DMG...there is attrition from incoming fire that reduces the number of weapons with which to hammer the enemy providing some mitigation to damage output.

While the statistics are nice, they don't always tell the whole story...and I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right...just that it needs a wider perspective when looking at the effects and consequences. :roll:

I think Googleplex might be on the right track.
While it is true that with a 3.0 su modifier the weapon would not be very attractive when compared to a vanilla version it does have the singular advantage of doing heavy damage early, very early if long enough ranged.
So yes, with my vanilla gun I could plink at you at long range while you hammer back at me.
   I'll lose weapons faster than you will, all defences being equal, so that when we do close (if still able to) my now powerful (at short range) guns will give you a serious walloping. Sad thing is I won't have as many to use against you, while you with your now inverted damage output may still be on par damage output wise with me at that point. 
  Again playtesting as you have said will show the advantages and disadvantages of the SU mods chosen from.
Will be interesting to see how they come out. As I pointed in my previous note on this thread I can see how all the normal gun mods could be inverted, just need Dan to give the say so on a point cost and go from there!
Roy 

This is true if you are using a free floating map.
If on the other hand the scenario is "Merchant Escort" or "Stationary Defence" ala defending a planet or star fort etc. Then their running away defeats the very purpose of their defence and adds to your win.
Personally in a real world context I believe the "Deep Space Encounter Scenario" should be rare to almost nonexistent compared to other scenarios. Most if not all battles will be about and around Real Estate.
That is battles resolved around conquest or annihilation of the enemy forces/population.
The only "Deep Space Encounters" that I could see happening regularly would be the "merchant escort mission" while the convoy is transiting from one planet to another. The "anti-piracy patrol" where anti-pirate ships are actively looking for pirate ships and their hidey holes. The last would be "fleet maneuvers to another planet or system and caught in transit" which really is just a variant of the convoy escort.
Roy

My brain still hurtz from the SFO thing, so it's over here to see if I can really muck up and hijack THIS thread....:P

..well, that, and there's an ice storm outside on my day off, and I have to re-install windows on my wife's now-clean primary HD....and I've discovered there's definitely a polygon limit on VRML files...

That argument goes back to O'Neill, and I'm very much in agreement with it. Ringworld anyone? :-)

It really depends on what you consider 'terrain'...

I've found that I can't visualize an existence for which I've no clear idea what the implications are - as I've really no good set of assumptions upon which to base it.

IE - if you don't know what life is like in space because the hardware doesn't exist, it's hard to write about...

SO, most people just assume it will be like today - albeit with new kitchen appliances and such...(ooo.. it slices AND makes Julienne Fries? I'll take 2!)

I unsubbed from SFConsimL some time ago, due to all the politcizing (I don't want it HERE, I'm just sayin' that's why I left) - but I would have stayed if there wasn't just a lot of the rehash of the physics of 'real world' space ships. It's boring - I mean, you can see ships as far away as Earth is from Saturn with the simple, low-tech Infrared gear we have NOW...

Stealth won't work in the real world for spaceships, as the background is too cold and IR signatures make you stand out really 'brightly'.

I think that for a game, you need a balance of 'fun' and 'realism', and that target shifts one way or the other depending on who you're playing. I don't mind having stealth and cloaks and such - but they're gonna COST you dear....
:-)

ping- pushed wrong button - ignore...

Only if it's equipped with a Q3 hyperdrive.    As Ringworld's Children proved, even megastructures are disturbingly fragile to weapons of comparable tech levels.  Mobility is the key here, I think.

Frighteningly, I just realized that both the Tyranid and Craftworld Eldar in Warhammer 40K are good examples of what I'm talking about too.  Who'd have thunk it, good speculative scifi from GW, the company who brought us the chainsword?  Must be an accident...

Well, yes, Realistic Physics can be pretty darn frustrating.  Fortunately, the moment you include FTL drives, you've already thrown RP out the window.  The trick then becomes restraining yourself from going overboard with arbitrary changes now that you know all science is fundamentally wrong.

OS Star Trek is a good example of *not* restraining yourself...but of course they were working on a limited sfx and props budget, which isn't a concern for game designers, right? 

Rich

That's not entirely true though John.  What it does is moves his long range band to medium range hexes...essentially eliminating his short range band where he's weakest.  He still gets the advantage of a 3x DMG multiplier for each hit.  The only advantage it gives is that it gives you a better chance to nail them...unless they have an SG also, which swings the advantage back to their favor (knife fighting with bazookas). 

Couple this weapon enhancement with a Tachyon Targetting set up and you can pretty well mangle any target within the long range band first shot out most of the time.   :shock:

Single weapon 18 range, 4+ hit, ROF 1, Pen 1, DMG 1 with inverted Rng based Dmg/ Pen, with two arcs.  Hits the target gets 3 dice for Pen~ potential max of 9 dice for dmg.  costs 108 SU  (assuming x2/x2 SU mod for IRB D/P)

Single weapon 18 range, 4+ hit, ROF 1, Pen 1, DMG 1 with 2 arcs = 27 SU cost.  It takes 9 of these weapons to do the same max damage of the one IRB D/P weapon.  27 x 9= 243 SUs.

Only 4 vanilla weapons can be bought for the cost of one IRB D/P weapon...so for 324 SU, the DMG potential is now 27 with the IRB; and only 12 with the vanilla weapons, better than 50% advantage.

Changing the IRB D/P weapon to x3 means each costs 243, there by equalling the cost of 9 vanilla weapons.  There's the statistical issue which is in favor of the vanilla weapons rolling more successes due to sheer number of dice, but also statistically speaking, effect is in favor of the enhanced weapon for each success.  Shotgun vs sniper rifle. 

Say we change the IRB D/P weapon to x2.8. costs drop to 211.68, you can only buy another 7 vanilla weapons (7 DMG) for another IRB D/P weapon (9 DMG).  So the statistical advantage begins to turn to the IRB weapon.  The major downside is that a majority of firepower is locked up in fewer mounts.

It just seems to essentially be trading fewer guns at less cost for equal or greater effect to me is all.
:?