• Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 379

Topic: AA could work

I've had some concerns about planes being too easy to target if they don't have flares, at which point they become  impossible to lock on to:

IE -- you have a plane with a thermal of 4 moving 13+ hexes = 1 or less "lock on" base value .....against an enemy with advanced sensors and a gunner (+3)= lock on with 4 or less ....until the flare (-5) drops you to -1.  Even with a heat seeker you can only boost that lock on target number to a 0.  Which means the plane is immune from harm.

So there's a strong risk of cheese designs if you allow planes with flares.

Now, on the other hand...

Same plane with thermal of 4 and 13+ hex speed = 1 or less needed to lock on.  Targeted by the same platform (+3) brings that back up to a 4 or less to lock on, unless the plane has basic ECM (-1), which drops it back down to lock on with a 3 or less.

That seems OK to me,  as the plane's main defensive measure is still its speed.  It should be able to angle itself outside of most enemy vehicles' arcs of fire.  And even if it does fall within an enemy ground vehicle's line of sight, you're looking at a 30% chance to hit, and then, assuming D8 is the default DAM value, you only have a 62.5% chance of causing a penetrating hit to an ARMOR 3 plane if you DO lock on.  So at medium range for a D8 weapon, we're talking about a 18.7% chance of inflicting a damaging hit, right? Do those odds feel OK?  My main concern is that the rules as they stand now don't disallow ANY weapon from firing at aircraft.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,285

Re: AA could work

Interesting point there Matt. smile

I'll look at this a lot closer after work...but conversationally off the cuff...

Flares target a hex and have a limited radius in which they are effective.  The plane would have to be in the same hex (or adjacent...no rules in front of me now, sorry) to get the full benefit of the flare.  I believe the range of the flare is 5 hexes away from the unit firing it.  A plane, without VTOL capabilities, has to move at least 1/3 of it's MP allowance or it stalls and crashes.  So the MP 13 would need to move at least 5 hexes to prevent a stall.  Okay, conceivably it ends next to its flare.  Not only is it unable to be hit, but it is likely unable to lock up anyone else either since the flare also affects its lock-on rolls as well. smile  This is the case with any unit.   If the aircraft slows enough to end up with it's flare, then it loses the modifiers for speed (ie, hexes moved)...if it moves its full MP value then it overflies the flare. 

Another issue is that you'll have other units firing flares onto the board and any plane on the board can for practical purposes, use those flares to 'hide' in, even if they were launched from an enemy unit. smile

Now...to discuss the AA portion of the topic...;)  Anti-aircraft could be a general enhancement (melee weapons being excepted) in which a bonus to lock-ons against aircraft are granted...allowing for dedicated AA weapons as desired.  Say a -2 to lock-on rolls?

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 379

Re: AA could work

There's no set range for flares, except to say it can shoot the thing up to 3 hexes away.  So conceivably a plane can drop a flare in its own or an adjacent hex, right?  And aren't flares and other measures like cratering charges done AFTER movement is complete?

I don't think you'd have to make AA a bonus.  You either state outright whether a weapon is AA or for surface targets.  The bonus would be if you allowed dual purpose weapons, which could target both.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 379

Re: AA could work

Looking at the rules, flares are dropped after movement, and the only range limit is a 3 hex cap.

So a plane can really benefit from 'em.

Now, that really isn't a problem until you have a player design a plane with 20 flares, at which point he'll always end his movement safe from lock on attempts.

And again, I think it's enough to note AA or Ground Targets alongside a weapon if they're limited to one role.  DP guns should get a modifier.

But DP weapons are RARE anyway, aren't they?

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,285

Re: AA could work

Shows how good MY memory is lately. *chuckles*  I stand corrected on that one. wink

From a generic weapon context, any weapon can be designed with any enhancement, the combinations thereof limited by the enhancements themselves.

If AA is meant to be a specific engagement weapon, then the enhancement can be written to prohibit the weapon from firing at ground targets or doing so at a penalty. (the latter being more palatable I think)

The flare issue is still there too in that even if the plane hides, it can only engage high profile targets itself since the lock-on penalties from the flare will apply to it as well.  neutral

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 379

Re: AA could work

Possible fix would be to limit flares to the same hex as the equipped unit.  Or else simply mark the unit as having deployed flares.

Why equip a unit with a flare projector that could benefit hostile units?

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: AA could work

ignore-placemarker

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,285

Re: AA could work

Because the flare serves a dual purpose.  Both as a defensive measure and as a night time light source. smile

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 379

Re: AA could work

Then you need to differentiate between night time illumination flares and the chaff/flares dispensed by planes and ships and other units to distract/deter missiles.  You got two vastly different apps there.  I'd not equip units with space consuming kit for the illumination purpose, you can just put night fighting rules in the game.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,285

Re: AA could work

themattcurtis wrote:

Then you need to differentiate between night time illumination flares and the chaff/flares dispensed by planes and ships and other units to distract/deter missiles.  You got two vastly different apps there.  I'd not equip units with space consuming kit for the illumination purpose, you can just put night fighting rules in the game.

They actually aren't differing systems though. The basic make up of the chaff flare and parachute flare/ illumination mortar round is essentially the same.  A magnesium based chemical charge....magnesium burns at extreme temperatures and provides a great deal of illumination.

The illumination use in Wardogs is mostly secondary anyway...since most units have the thermal imaging and sensors that negate the need for light.

In a way, decoy flares are like trees.  Once they're there...anyone can use 'em.  Just watch out for squirrels talking in scottish accents.  lol