Topic: Ressurecting the ROF question

First...Great rules set.  Just picked up Starmada Brigade X and my droogs  are all very impressed.....But everyone noted that ROF is the easiest way to get increased firepower for the lowest cost, makes for great fighter defense, and stacks well with range based ROF.

Seems to be a bit of a balance issue here.   Since the forum posts indicate that Dan had intended ROF to be more expensive than P or D,  what formulas or mods do any of you use to balance this?


thanks and keep up the great work!

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

The (ROF+1)*PEN*DMG formula came about because I wanted to weight ROF more, since it was more "versitile" (i.e., ROF is important against fighters, whereas PEN and DMG are not). However, as was subsequently pointed out to me, this has the OPPOSITE effect.

Several options are out there:

1) Leave it.

2) Change it to R*(P+.5)*(D+.5)

3) Change it to R*(P+1)*(D+1)/2

4) Change it to R*P*D (i.e., all three variables are equal weight)

Until such time as there is a new revision of Starmada, I leave it to players to decide which option works best for them.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Oh for crying out loud.
After two (rather huge) margaritas tonight, it's easy to see that this is a total copout.
Make a decision man.
big_smile
Kevin

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Thanks for the reply.  We will take a look at the options you presented.  Here is something I did as well.  ( added ^1.8, or ^1.9 to the ROF formula)
This file shows both options, and a comparison to the original formula.

These make ROF more expensive than p & d, but dont change the costs of rof 1 weapons.

enjoy

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

I say leave it. If you've got someone that is going to try and create a fleet that is statistically 'better' than any other fleet, either incur a point penalty against that fleet in games, outlaw that player from designing their own fleet until all other members of that group okay it, or stick to fan-made designs and published designs that are made out of a love for a fair battle.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

cricket wrote:

Several options are out there:

1) Leave it.

2) Change it to R*(P+.5)*(D+.5)

3) Change it to R*(P+1)*(D+1)/2

4) Change it to R*P*D (i.e., all three variables are equal weight)

Of these three options, I prefer the original, option #1. With the other two options it costs the same for 3x 1/1/1 weapons as it does for 1x 3/1/1 weapon. I'll have the same number of shots but it will take more hits to kill me and I'll never build anything but ROF 1 weapons ever again. In my opinion, it isn't broken. With the current algorithm of (ROF+1) x P x D you can get a discount for high ROF but the trade off is, you are easier to kill.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

There are really two issues with the existing forumula.

Because ROF is cheaper than P & D, there is no reason to spend points on P&D. 

ROF is equally useful vs ships or Fighters,  P&D are not useful vs fighters.

Having 1/1/1 weapons is fine, but from a design standpoint, one might want to limit the number of weapons to reduce the number of a b or c  hits on the damage chart. 

(Although I will build some ships with all 1/1/1 weapons just to try it.)

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Dan,

After much wrangling, we have decided for option-

3) Change it to R*(P+1)*(D+1)/2


Now the big question is ...what cell in the ship builder has the weapon formula?

(PS OldNGrey  if you would be so kind as to answer for your sheet as well, it would be much appreciated!)

thanks!

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Change cell T11, which currently reads:

=ROUND(E11*VLOOKUP(F11,V$15:W$18,2)*(G11+1)*H11*I11*VLOOKUP(J11,X:Y,2)*VLOOKUP(M11,X:Y,2)*VLOOKUP(P11,X:Y,2),1)

To this:

=ROUND(E11*VLOOKUP(F11,V$15:W$18,2)*G11*(H11+1)*(I11+1)/2*VLOOKUP(J11,X:Y,2)*VLOOKUP(M11,X:Y,2)*VLOOKUP(P11,X:Y,2),1)

You'll need to change cells T15 and T19 as well.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Here is a tool for anyone that wants to use adjusted rules for cost on high ROF weapons.   This spreadsheet basically reverses the cost of ROF and P&D.  ROF is now more expensive, P&D are less expensive; as was the original intent of the game design. 

Having designed a few ships and played a few games, we are quite pleased  with the results.


Enjoy!

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

The shipyard cells that would have to be changed are on the Nations sheet, cells AD9 to AD24.
As above, replacing the (1+$O$x)*($P$x)*($Q$x) with the ($S$x)*1+$P$x)*(1+$Q$x)/2
Where x is the line number.

The shipyard was created by K. David Ladage, I have just (I Hope) helped it to evolve over the last year or so by adding as much as I have been able to. Most of the changes I have made are given on the notes sheet. Probably the best thing is that it works with excel and Open Office.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

GhengisRexx wrote:

Having 1/1/1 weapons is fine, but from a design standpoint, one might want to limit the number of weapons to reduce the number of a b or c  hits on the damage chart.

With this algorithm, 1 x 3/1/1 weapon will cost the same as 3 x 1/1/1 weapon. The ship with the higher number of weapons will be more survivable and there is no incentive to ever build anything but ROF 1 weapons. Here is a look:

Scenario 1
Given two 10 HS ships, one (Ship A) armed with 5 x 2/1/1 weapons and one (Ship B) armed with 10 x 1/1/1 weapons. They will have the same ORat and ComRat with the [ R*(P+1)*(D+1)/2 ] formula. Both (assuming no armor or shields) will statistically take 20 hits to destroy. Ship A with fewer weapons will have 1 weapon on the damage chart (1 in 6 hits will destroy a weapon) while ship B, with two times as many weapons, will have 2 weapons on the damage chart (2 in 6 hits will destroy a weapon). If both ships take 18 points of damage, ship A loses 3 weapons and ship B should lose 6 weapons. They should still have the same firepower.

Scenario 2
Given two 10 HS ships, one (Ship A) armed with 2 x 2/3/3 weapons and one (Ship B) armed with 4 x 1/3/3 weapons with the defenses as above (i.e. none). Again they will have the same ORat and ComRat with the [ R*(P+1)*(D+1)/2 ] formula. Now however, both only have one weapon on the damage track (1 in 6 chance of a weapon hit). After only twelve hits, Ship A is weaponless while ship B will still have two weapons.

All of this is assuming an even spread of dice rolls (which never seems to happen in the real world). But it seems to me that at best high ROF weapons have parity with ROF 1 weapons and in some situations, are less survivable. They are both equally effective against fighters but you have a better chance of keeping some ROF 1 weapons to shoot back with using this algorithm. This makes ROF 1 weapons superior to high ROF weapons and eliminates the reason to ever build high ROF weapons ever again.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Hmm, Interesting.   As it was originally written, doubling rof 1->2 increased cost by 50%, tripling it 1->3 doubled the cost.

Your point about the cost vs effectiveness of  rof ves ability to take extra hits is valid with the modified formula my group decided to use, but not as much so with the original formula. 

And with the original formula, there was no reason to make p or d more than one due to the cost.

Now it seems we have made p & d more viable, but rof is much less so.

The only other consideration for rof is when trying to insure that the number of weapons in a battery is 50% of hull or less.  I prefer to keep the number of weapons down to exactly 50% of my hull, so I have less chance of losing one on a hit.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

GhengisRexx wrote:

I prefer to keep the number of weapons down to exactly 50% of my hull, so I have less chance of losing one on a hit.

Yea, I do the same thing. If I have to have more, then I try to have them in multiples of HS/2 to get the most weapons for the least vulnerability on the damage track. Kind of hard though in a campaign where you are restricted to pre-designed weapons.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Just stumbled on this thread right after I was thinking this exact thing.  So, is the "move the +1 from P to P and D" an official ruling?  That change is not in the spreadsheet you can get from the front page of Majestic 12's Starmada section.

Re: Ressurecting the ROF question

Boneless wrote:

Just stumbled on this thread right after I was thinking this exact thing.  So, is the "move the +1 from P to P and D" an official ruling?

Not for the moment, no.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com