Topic: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

Just relating how I think about fleets when designing them, and curious as to how others do so as well.

1.)  Fluff Side:  I see pretty pictures in my head, I imagine what sort of race built the ships in those pretty pictures, I imagine how the weapons interact with their opponents, and with the ships themselves.  I think about how the people that built them think, and what their likely opponents are (No navy exists in a vaccum).

2.)  Conversion.  Build a fleet that does, in SM, as close as possible to what the fleet 'in the head' did fluffside.  Not always a perfect 1-1 correlation, but no created thing is perfect.

3.)  Crunchanalysis:  SMX, ultimately, is a game, and we are wargamers.  Some things work and some things dont, and some things may have come out of that conversion that wont work, no matter how cool they appear in the head.  Those things get patched up at this stage.

4.)  Evaluation:  General evaluation critera:

a.)  How does this navy deal with standoff issues, the longer-ranged foe that attempts to hold the range open?  (Usual answer is spinals, equally long ranged guns, or superior speed)

b.)  How does this navy deal with 'crushers', the fast foe with utterly lethal close range weaponry?  (Again, go fast, have massive point blank firepower yourself, or have at least sufficient firepower to attrit incoming vessels before they get to point blank where the ranged-based x, y, and z guns do you in)

3.)  Anti-Fighter issues:  How well does the ship stand up to its points value in FTL fighters?  I try to aim for fighting about even, here, because in an actual game, a ship may well get jumped by more than its CR/60 squadrons of fighters, and other ships may not be able to support.

4.)  Firepower vs. Surviviablity:  How quickly does the ship disable its identical twin?  If faced with its identical twin, would it have to go erratic to avoid being crippled?  Here, I try to aim for a single ship being able to shake off a single turns unreturned volleys in its longer range bands without meaningful damage, even without going erratic.  Going erratic should reduce incoming damage to the point where several turns of unreturned fire will be necessary to greatly impede the ships capabilities.

5.)  How gamist is my work?
ROF is cheaper, and better, than PEN or DMG.  Did I make everything ROF 2 or 3, and only then if then raise damage?
What about expendables?  Are there enough to wipe out whole fleets in 1 barrage at R18?  How about massively innacurate, and thus cheap, expendables with TDAR?
Stealth and sniperguns? 
None of these are necessarily immoral, and certainly not exhaustive... but its pretty clear when you look at your navy if the pretty picture in your head has been... influenced... by the hard realities of the system.
I also look at weapons and system fits here.. do I have the perfect damage track, with just enough speed, firepower, sheilds, etc. to minimize the systems lost to any point of damage?

6.)  Fun:  Do I want to play with this navy?  Would it be neat and interesting on the table, and does the design lend itself to interesting tactics?  Will it generate alot of decision points for me when I use them, such that victory or defeat turns on those decisions, rather than on the mathmatics of how MY navy interacts with someone elses navy?  And perhaps most importantly, if my buddy showed up with this fleet, would I scream in anguish, scream in joy, or go 'ooohh, that looks interesting, lets see how this nut can be cracked'


Just curious as to how everyone else thought/approached it.

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

I look at most of the same things that you look at, and a few more besides.... One of the things you would probably enjoy is in the first couple of issues of The Great Machine online magazine written by Tyrel Lore. Yes, the magazine is primarily in support of the B5Wars game, but he wrote a wonderful article on how to create races, and design ships for them.....

Currently, I am working with my group.... we are creating a starmap, each player is an admiral tasked with defending the borders of their own region, and expanding influence. They each get a set amount of ships and support stuff, but they deploy it as they want. We are using a number of house rules that seem to be working fine, and with the exception of one player.... everyone is in a position of having to decide which ships are heading out to attack, and which ones are remaining to defend planets and bases. The one player came up with a concept of a pirate / slaver force that uses large, barely mobile bases instead of planets..... she spends most of her time moving through uninhabited systems, and trying to scout out other fleets and capture ships and slaves..... Of course, those with planets get so many CR points at certain times, and can use them to purchase replacement ships, fighters, or bases. Ships are repaired on a base cost.... dependent on the overall hull size of the ship, and time.... so many turns listed as under repair.  So far, it is working, but time will tell if it will work.

John

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

I primarily play Starmada as part of a campaign using a lot of VBAM rules. So, I am restricted in my design choices by what technology is actually available. Of course I try to develop the tech that fits my prefered design priorities, but this isn't always possible and I have had to field many a ship design with design parameters that I would rather not play with.
For instance, I like ships with a good turn of speed, early in the campaign, engines mass a lot and I cannot field designs with what I consider adequite speed. I then immeediately invest in bumping up my speed. My opponent however has invested in some tricked out fighters and now my faster ships need a good anti-fighter weapon, so I try to develop good fighters of my own or add range based ROF or some othe good anti fighter mod to a weapon system.
You are correct, no navy exists in a vacuum and I have found my ships must take my likely opponents into account (as I am sure they take my designs into account).

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

Sorry about the extra post.... but here is the link for The Great Machine..... meant to put it in the earlier post.

http://planetside.firenebula.com//

Enjoy !!

John

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

Excellent topic. :!:

I use naval miniatures and design my ships to be "battleships in space", such as INJ Yamato, turned into the Argo, in Starblazers.  I have 1/3000 naval miniatures with added tube engines.  They are similar to the FRAX fleet in Starfleet Battles.  They have only one battery of weapons, which fire out to 18.  The secondaries that WW2 ships had are represented by the point defense system that all of my ships have along, with level 2 or 3 shields.  WW2 capital ships were armored, so these ships of mine have armored hull & armored batteries.  Their heavy guns hit on 3+, and are mounted FX & AX, half are "abcd" & half "cdef" arcs.  These capital ships are speed 6, and have long-range sensors.  They also have overthrusters because all of their weapons only fire together in "c" & "d" arcs.  They're effective ships.  smile

I follow the philosophy of the USA Navy in the late 1930's & 1940s.  Use heavy firepower, especially at long range and pound your opponants.  The ships' "Heavy Guns" have a ROF of 2 or 3 depending on the design & rerolls penetration.  This gives the ships an AA ability.  We don't use expendables when  I play in South Florida because we think them too overpowering.   But if I could use them, then battery B would be a full bank of these weapons:
rg = 18, hit = 3+,  3/1/1 with re-roll to hit.  They would be similar to XO racks in Starfire.  These XO missiles would make my ships almost fighter-proof. :idea:
Most of my capital ships have 22 hull (!)  I think of all of them as being size 11 with reinforced hull + extra crew; which was available in the Starmada Compendium game.  My big ships  have a total tech of +4, and are of Hull 20 to 24 BBs whose CRs range from 962 [USS Arkansas] to 1565 [USS North Carolina].  These capital ships are escorted by drone carrying DDGs of hull size 8, thought of as hull4 w/reinforced hull & extra crew.  (I build few cruisers because I don't enjoy them as much). 
This fleet is rather formidable, just as the US Navy of WW2.  These ships are very fun to play and usually are on the winning side. All of my heavy ships also have sunbursts battle-satts, science labs, 250 troops or 100 passengers and .. a medical bay, if it fits.  There may be vulnerabilities that I don't realize, and have not planned for.   :shock:

Steven Gilchrist; Jacksonville, Fla, USA

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

Nahuris:  Thanks for the link!  Was useful.

Beowulf:

Id be curious to see your navy... do you have them posted in the Basin?

Im of two minds about expendables... when their used reasonably, their neat, flavourful, and FIT... one-use weapons of unusual impact are just soooo... GENRE.  For lots of genres.

I think my rule about expendables is to use them to flavour, and to create interesting choices.  SOME expendables, used either early to create an advantage, or at a critical time (and closer range where accuracy is better), is neat.

Enough expendables to remove half the enemy fleet as soon as their within range is not neat.

Its the mirror condition, perhaps.. dont bring any fleet that you not willing to have played against you.

Re: Eggshells, Sledgehammers, and Design Philosophy in Starmada

Hello Marcus Smyth,

Thanx for your interest in my ships. big_smile    I am not sure how to post a design of mine in the "Basin"; first time I've hear of it. :shock:   My ships are made on a Microsoft Excell Spreadsheet that a friend of mine, Gaming Glen, put together.  He modified and smoothed out the regular starmadaXdesigner.  He is very skilled with computers. 8)   I have been able to cut-n-paste my ships onto E Mails tho.   :idea:

in the past,I killed a well eesigned 15 hull ship with several 1 hull torpedo-boats having "21 Inch Torpedoes:
{rg=12, ROF3, 3+, 3/1/1 rerolls penetration, halves shields, range based damage}   These torpedoes were very devistating, rather outrageous, excessively cheap, but brutally effective!  :shock: (I liked them<LOL>)
This is why we banned expendibles.  Too bad, "Terrier Missiles":
{rg=18, ROF3, 3+, 3/1/1, rerolls to hit} made my fleet fighter-proof.  We also now only allow a weapon to have One Ability, the same as Starmada Compendium weapons.  This made overly-powerful combinations of abilities impossible. big_smile   We have played many games this way and are having fun... :!:

Steven Gilchrist; Jacksonville, Fla, USA
:arrow: BeowulfJB@aol.com