• Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

I think that since most ships can turn quite quickly, there isn't any penalty for sticking all your guns out the front arcs.  Under most conditions, it is very difficult to be out of the arc for someone to shoot at.  It gets worse once you have a lot of ships.  There are a couple of ways to handle this and here are the two ideas that I was toying with.

1.  Split MP into Thrust points and Maneuvering points.  Thrust points are only for determining the speed a ship goes.  The cost for Maneuvering points are worked out based on the size of the ship and are used to actually turn the ship.  I was going to use this for a Star Frontiers conversion.

2.  The cost for a turn in MP is equal to the number of previous turns made +1.  Thus the first turn is 1 MP, the second turn is 2 MP, and third is 3 MP and so on.  A ship must move one space between turns.  Thus, a 180 degree turn will cost a minimum of 8 MP.

For my conversion, I really wanted to make something like option 1, but for ease of play (and less tinkering of the design process), I would go with option 2.

-Bren

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 158

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

Anytime, within the framework of Starmada, you are going to scale "thrust" to "hull size" -- please bear in mind that "thrust" is *already* scaled to hull size by virtue of the calculations to get the Engine Rating.

In other words: An Engine Rating 5 on a Hull 1 ship is a far smaller engine than an Engine Rating 5 on a Hull 25 ship.

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

Im also uncomfortable with a scheme that makes a hypothetical thrust 5 hull 20 ship less manuverable than a thrust 5 hull 1 ship.  Both paid the appropriate CR for their thrust, and the Hull 20 ship also paid relatively more SU.


As for fractional ROF, and what it should cost... you should always get less back than the decrease in total volume of fire.  IE, an every-two-turns weapon should cost more than half as much as an every-turn-weapon.

Why?  Damage now is better than damage later.  If it was an even, 1:1 ratio in reduction of ROF to reduction of cost, consider a once-every-20-turns weapon.. or 'round one, I fire, you all die'.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

Perhaps a lesson from USA Naval history could help. 

Compare the battleship USS Iowa to the light cruiser Cleveland.  Both ships could do 33 knots.  Fully loaded, the Iowa displaces 55,000 tones and is 888 ft long.  The fully-loaded USS Cleveland displaced 13,000 tones and was 610 feet long.   

Yet both ships had the same turning radius.  That is, the Iowa could turn around as quickly, and in as short a distance as the smaller cruiser!

So the idea of a 26 hull DN turning as quickly as an 8 hull cruiser with the same speed, is Not Unreasonable...

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 158

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

There are two reasons I would argue against fractional ROF, and instead argue for a weapon characteristic called "delay" or "recharge" or something that slows the weapon down.

1. Fractions cause confusion in text-based ship records. Even in spreadsheets, they are clunky when displayed.

2. I would like to see the capability of having a weapon that has a ROF 3, and a delay. This would be a weapon that bursts with fire, cools down (or gets reloaded, or what-have-you), then can fire another burst.

This seems an odd distinction, I am sure. But if you play with it, you will see that it is one of those things that makes more sense the more you play with it.

As far as costing it... I agree with Marcus: the payback should be less than the gain. You cannot have a weapon that fires once in 20 rounds ... but fires a "map killer shot" when it does without having trouble. One way of mitigating this, without mucking up the calculations, is to state that, at the start of the game, a weapon with a "delay" factor cannot fire until turn X, where X is the delay factor.

For example, suppose a ship has a weapon that is like an SFB Photon Torpedo. It has a fire-delay-fire pattern. This is Delay 1. The weapon can fire on turn 1 if the opportunity arises.

For example, suppose a ship has a weapon that is like an SFB Plasma Torpedo. It has a fire-delay-delay-fire pattern. This is Delay 2. The weapon cannot fire on turn one of the battle, but must wait until at least turn 2 before it is armed and ready.

So if this theoretical fire-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-delay-fire weapon with Delay 19 is thrown into a battle... you had better hope that ship can survive until turn 19 when that weapon is finally online to be used...

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 158

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

BeowulfJB wrote:

Perhaps a lesson from USA Naval history could help. 

Compare the battleship USS Iowa to the light cruiser Cleveland.  Both ships could do 33 knots.  Fully loaded, the Iowa displaces 55,000 tones and is 888 ft long.  The fully-loaded USS Cleveland displaced 13,000 tones and was 610 feet long.   

Yet both ships had the same turning radius.  That is, the Iowa could turn around as quickly, and in as short a distance as the smaller cruiser!

So the idea of a 26 hull DN turning as quickly as an 8 hull cruiser with the same speed, is Not Unreasonable...

Good lesson. However... space != water.

Consider: add to this the USS CARL VINSON (CVN-70). This is an aircraft carrier capable of 33 knots plus. It is not accelerating to 33 knots anywhere near as quickly as the Cleveland or the Iowa. And it is certainly not turning around as quickly either.

The argument goes both ways. I agree, in space (with no displacement-resistance caused by the medium you are travelling in), it is not unreasonable. But I thought I would point out the hole in the argument before someone else jumped on it and got rude... smile

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,286

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

In space it's all about the thrust!  wink  Basically providing enough to overcome mass inertia and providing that resistance provided by the ocean water.
smile

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

KDLadage wrote:

As far as costing it... I agree with Marcus: the payback should be less than the gain. You cannot have a weapon that fires once in 20 rounds ... but fires a "map killer shot" when it does without having trouble. One way of mitigating this, without mucking up the calculations, is to state that, at the start of the game, a weapon with a "delay" factor cannot fire until turn X, where X is the delay factor.

I'm not a big fan of this. If I'm going into battle, I'm making durn sure the tubes are loaded and capacitors are charged...

A better way to handle this would be to (a) cap the recharge rate at 3, so that you aren't taking a "fires once in a million turns" restriction and (b) point cost it with the assumption that you will fire it (or have the opportunity to do so) in the first turn.

e.g., as described, a recharge-2 weapon has a "FIRE-delay-delay-FIRE" pattern, or two shots in four turns. 2/4 = 50%. By this logic, a recharge-1 weapon would have a factor of 2/3, or 67%.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 158

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

Good call, Dan.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 137

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

KDLadage wrote:

As far as costing it... I agree with Marcus: the payback should be less than the gain. You cannot have a weapon that fires once in 20 rounds ... but fires a "map killer shot" when it does without having trouble. One way of mitigating this, without mucking up the calculations, is to state that, at the start of the game, a weapon with a "delay" factor cannot fire until turn X, where X is the delay factor.

This seems eminently reasonable. With any luck, the gain in punch cancels the loss in flexibility, so a weapon that fires every other turn costs half as much as a weapon that fires every turn.

Of course, we can steal from SFB the idea of a weapon that gets more powerful as it charges, so you have to decide when you have enough...

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

So Recharge 1 costs 67% as much as recharge 0, and recharge 2 costs 50%?  And both can fire on turn 1.

Daddy likes.  Will be updating my personal spreadsheets for this, shortly.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 137

Re: Tactics in Design-your-own-ships games

D'oh! Didn't realize there was now a third page of posts.

Dan's solution works well, too.