• Registered: 2007-10-09
  • Posts: 33

Topic: Is Defiance for me?

Hello, all!  I have just recently heard of Defiance from posts on other forums and saw it on RPGNOW as a PDF and thought I would investigate it more.  It sounds like a generic system with good rules and a way to make armies out of figures I already own.

Well, one of the reasons I am interested is that I have a lot of Tyranids that just sit in their boxes as no one plays WH40K in my area (at least not at the single game store which refuses to sell GW items; owners are *****) and those that I know who do play miniature wargames just don't like the WH40k rules.  So, I am looking for a way to get those Tyranids dusted off and acting like Tyranids on the battlefield; not proxies for some other race.

So, is Defiance a good choice for me?  Has someone already done the conversion for WH40k armies or are people not allowed to post such information without repercussions from GW?  If not and I was going to do it on my own, how much of a struggle will it be to do a good representation of Tyranids?  Obviously, I'd have to convert one or two other armies for opponents, too.

Or, would I have better luck just going to the game store with Tyranids in tow and wait till someone says "Hey, I play WH40K also"?

Thanks.

  • Registered: 2007-01-04
  • Posts: 21

Re: Is Defiance for me?

I don't play 40K so I can't really comment on making Tyranids acting like Tyranids.
What I can say is that the Defiance rules is that if you are prepared to put a bit of time into it (as it can appear a bit daunting at first) they allow you a lot of flexibility in creating your army. And are great to play.
My personal vote is buy them you won't be disappointed.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Is Defiance for me?

TriOpticon wrote:

Well, one of the reasons I am interested is that I have a lot of Tyranids that just sit in their boxes as no one plays WH40K in my area

That is pretty odd... Usually it's the other way around: it's hard to find anyone anything but GW games. Granted, Fantasy Battle may be the way to go -- it is around here although I suppose if I were to go to my LGS I still could find me a few Wh40k gamers.

So, is Defiance a good choice for me? [...] how much of a struggle will it be to do a good representation of Tyranids?

Depends on what is your definition of "acting like Tyranids", I suppose. Defiance is rather ranged combat oriented compared to Wh40k and of course otherwise game mechanically quite different as well (IMCO superior, but mileages wary obviously).

So while an all out scuttling close combat monstrosity horde is doable, I must confess to having doubts if it will be combatitive against most other forces. Of course nowaways you can actually make a quite shooty Tyranid force under Wh40k rules as well, so this hand-to-hand only thing may not be what you are looking to do.

Regardless, one of the strengths of D:VG is that you can actually make a force out of them that will play differently from other armies. Investing in the full rules and using the Organic genre modification helps making the force even more distinctive from "tech-users". Playing under the full rules will also help hand-to-hand only troops, although of course they'll have to pay in points for it.

Has someone already done the conversion for WH40k armies or are people not allowed to post such information without repercussions from GW?

I should think that GW, if they notice it or get notified, can order removal of anything that infringes their copyright from any web site. They've been known to be rather keen in this regard. So it would be inviting trouble to put a Tyranid force list using GW registred or copyrighted names for example on MJ12 Games official D:VG site. It's not exactly risky if you do it as a "civilian" on your personal site and don't give GW any trouble if they come a-calling...

That said, the official site has several generic forces available (see armydemos.pdf) that you may find of considerable interest. You will find, among others, a biotech force with certain ties to the subject at hand.

Or, would I have better luck just going to the game store with Tyranids in tow and wait till someone says "Hey, I play WH40K also"

As much as I see D:VG superior as a game over Wh40k, I should think you eventually will find more people to game against this way. However D:VG is well worth a look or two in any case.

  • Registered: 2007-10-09
  • Posts: 33

Re: Is Defiance for me?

tnjrp wrote:

That is pretty odd... Usually it's the other way around: it's hard to find anyone anything but GW games.

I would think so, too, but no such luck for me.  Miniature wargames (not the clix kind) are not big around here, it seems.  I did just find out that a local HobbyTown is trying to start doing miniature wargaming.  I know there is a Flames of War game next Sunday so maybe that will attract some other players.

Depends on what is your definition of "acting like Tyranids", I suppose.

I guess I mean that whatever weapon or attack that a 'nid has can be interpreted into a weapon/attack in D:VG.  I'd like them to be the fast, swarming type of army.  I'd like a genestealer to be able to shred a marine type opponent, etc.

I should think that GW, if they notice it or get notified, can order removal of anything that infringes their copyright from any web site.

I agree.  I was just thinking that surely someone has already done this by now...I saw some LoS conversions and LoS is a very old, oop and obscure game.

That said, the official site has several generic forces available (see armydemos.pdf) that you may find of considerable interest. You will find, among others, a biotech force with certain ties to the subject at hand.

Thanks for the info.

As much as I see D:VG superior as a game over Wh40k, I should think you eventually will find more people to game against this way. However D:VG is well worth a look or two in any case.

I am still trying to learn it as much as I can.  I think it would be an easier to sell to my friends if I could say we can use their already owned miniatures to play and make it fairly close to what they are fielding.

Thanks for the info.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Is Defiance for me?

TriOpticon wrote:

I guess I mean that whatever weapon or attack that a 'nid has can be interpreted into a weapon/attack in D:VG

For the most part, yes. Some exotic things like a psychic test for an attack or a weapon that is actually dangerous to the user can't be modelled under the official rules, although a house rule could be deviced of course.

I'd like them to be the fast, swarming type of army.

This should be doable.

I saw some LoS conversions and LoS is a very old, oop and obscure game

I believe the author talked openly about his lists with Amazon miniatures who currently have the rights to the LOS minis so I do think those lists are kind of semi-official actually. And anyway, they aren't up on an official company site that I know of.

I think it would be an easier to sell to my friends if I could say we can use their already owned miniatures to play and make it fairly close to what they are fielding

You should be able to use all of the miniatures. However "close to what they are fielding" is a highly loaded issue. Some people get their panties all in a bunch over conversions of any kind as they aren't 100% the same as the original. In other words their "close" is "no difference at all".

  • Registered: 2007-10-09
  • Posts: 33

Re: Is Defiance for me?

tnjrp wrote:

For the most part, yes. Some exotic things like a psychic test for an attack or a weapon that is actually dangerous to the user can't be modelled under the official rules, although a house rule could be deviced of course.

Ok...I hear there is an expansion coming "soon."  Would this sort of rule be in there, possibly?

I'd like them to be the fast, swarming type of army.

This should be doable.

Excellent.  Thanks.

I believe the author talked openly about his lists with Amazon miniatures who currently have the rights to the LOS minis so I do think those lists are kind of semi-official actually. And anyway, they aren't up on an official company site that I know of.

No, they were not, but I would not care if it was not on the official website.  I was just hoping someone had done all the work for me and would just say go here. smile 

You should be able to use all of the miniatures. However "close to what they are fielding" is a highly loaded issue. Some people get their panties all in a bunch over conversions of any kind as they aren't 100% the same as the original. In other words their "close" is "no difference at all".

True but my friends like conversions and such.  They like the universe of 40k, just not the rules.  So, as long as they can say they have  a chaos space marine and it is carrying these weapons, whether modeled exactly or not, they'd be happy.

Thanks for the response.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Is Defiance for me?

TriOpticon wrote:
tnjrp wrote:

For the most part, yes. Some exotic things like a psychic test for an attack or a weapon that is actually dangerous to the user can't be modelled under the official rules, although a house rule could be deviced of course.

Ok...I hear there is an expansion coming "soon."  Would this sort of rule be in there, possibly?

Not that I know of. Anyway, some of detail is always going to get lost as an "open" game like Defiance can't possibly include everything a "closed" game like Wh40k has provided, is providing or might provide in the future.

Also D:VG has a more modern or science fiction type of approach than "space fantasy" of Wh40k so this also affects certain choices in the basic rules. The relative dominance of ranged combat being one, the general lack of unreliable equipment being another for example.

I was just hoping someone had done all the work for me and would just say go here

The closest I know are the army lists I pointed you to. I have two edits thereof that may or may not be better in this regard which I can send you if you don't find the originals to your liking. The differences are pretty minor tho, I did them to accomodate our specific model selection and not to provide for general consumption.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Is Defiance for me?

I want to agree with everything tnjrp wrote and just summarize again that Defiance, while not allowing you to mimic all of the deatils of a particular army list, will allow you to retain the *flavor* quite well...in some ways, Iwould argue it also lets you add to the flavor a bit in terms of morale, tactical and strategic considerations.

In any case, if you decide to check out Defiance, TriOpticon, we're always happy to hear feedback and answer questions!

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Is Defiance for me?

While there are sure to be things you can't do in Defiance, there will be a bunch you CAN do. For example, and I refer to the fiction surrounding Space Marines here:

Bolters, in WH40K clearly DO NOT fire an armour-piercing semi-guided round that does massive damage and might potentially spray shrapnel over a large area. In Defiance you can make them do that.

Another thing you can do in Defiance is play Tyranids against, say, Waffen SS.

While I am unaware of "weapon kills user" options in Defiance, the statistical derivation of the weapons values means you CAN house-rule in weapons that might not fire; the chance of being denied your attack in this activation is the cost discount for the weapon. So, if you run a 10% chance of the weapon failing to fire regardless of what your to-hit roll was, then you get a 10% discount on the weapon.

***

For a close-combat force I personally think you need to back them up with lots of template weapons at range (this seems VERY Tyranid, from my memory of 2nd Ed 40K). Template weapons mess with your enemy's morale, and if you can hit troops that are already shaken or pinned with close combat monsters you can greatly increase your chances of killing 2 or even 3 enemy figures for every monster in one round of close quarters combat. Add cheap Terror CDWs, one-shot cone weapons, or "limited ammo  short range high FR" weapons to represent hive mind, fear, acid vomit and other alien horror and suddenly you can VAPORISE entire squads in one round of massive morale failure, let alone the kills you rack up- if you can get close enough.

Of course this is very... VERY high-risk in Defiance, but part of the charm of the game is the speed and degree of turnaround that can occur in just a few minutes in real-time. One fast-mover with a serious cone weapon can really ruin someone's whole day- unless of course they catch it in a crossfire and send it straight to hell.

Compared to the current edition of 40K you'll find you can make troops that move with blinding speed, especially fliers and jumpers which at the extreme may move 24" in one turn- figures large enough to be considered vehicles can use vehicle move brackets that peak at 60" in a single turn. You might need to take advantage of that and Field (ie Invulnerable) saves to help counteract the rather extreme (in 40K terms) quantities of ranged firepower being thrown about- also grenades and CDWs can be built to include "smoke" effects to provide cover for advancing troops and "vehicles".