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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by jimbeau
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well, there's nothing stopping you from doing that, of course, but I was talkng about more of a Starmada background source book than any crossover thing.
New Points for our friends the Thesians
Made a minor change.
I think it's about ready.
(see the top message changes in BLUE)
http://mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1089&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
mmm so frangible
http://mj12games.com/ftm/ftmdemo.pdf
with the standard caveat: These files are made available for personal use only; please do not make numerous printouts, or pass the files to third parties. If your friends want copies, tell them to come here and get their own!
read, play, enjoy.
I mean it, if you miss even one of those, the puppies will be seriously maimed and may not make it through the night.
oh, yeah, from a recent post in this very thread, the races are:
Alvernan (knightly medieval types)
Boreal (Northern Barbarians)
Azwetan (like zulus)
Dwarves (well, they're short and polite)
Wood Elves (you know...)
Grimmpule (Nasty little creatures. ick)
Haedun (Animal people)
Laxud (craaaazy lizards)
Orcs (grrr)
Man Orcs (Half-orc types)
Saxid (trading lizards)
but we'd love to see a background book based in reality, that would rock!
There's no reason you can't make mongols and chinese fight. If you buy the full set you can build the races yourself (ansd submit them for great Kudos)
Well, if you wait, you won't get to have any input on the second edition.
and at $9.95 how can you go wrong 
and if you wait, who knows how long it will be before we nail down the actual details of the second edition.
actually, you should buy two copies in case the first electronic copy gets too dog-eared from constant re-reading of the cool background material...:D
If you're wondering how it plays, get the free download and set up the game in there, just for testing, you should be able to play just from the free download and then you can decide.
um, because if you wait, puppies will die of cancer?
I think that's true, but THere is still a very wide range between the piddly unit, the medioum unit and the super tough unit.
oh well, I return to cogitate.
Rabble must, therefore, always take command points in order to make them do anything.
might work.
I can't prove anything necessary. I can only say what I want.
I want commanders to have an effect on the entire force.
Obviously the above formula doesn't do that. And I'm not entirely happy with the "One large product" aspect of the formula either.
<sigh> Back to the drawing board.
How's about we give each troop type a number of "spaces" they can fill a-la-Starmada?
i.e.
Infantry 100
Cavalry 300
Monsters 200 * size
Add in a SU cost for each power or die type and see where that takes us?
More on this later...I have to go to church now
Sorry, I don't know what baility is...
ha ha
okay, your point is taken. Can I come over and play monopoly too?
How would you change the points system (or, gasp, does it work now as it stands?)
um, I'd say, we're putting it in the book... with obvious, you're not from around here edits OR we put it in verbatim and call it a "translation history from the original Thesian Sage who told us the story" which would also be cool (depends on your opinion and your permission, of course)
beautiful integration with existing races, also.
the only thing left is how you'd like to be credited 
Let's see some stats, we can deal with the points later!
having done this:
1500pts
Bring the fleets yourself.
Mostly people don't bring their own fleets. I've run "tourneys" at 10 cons give or take over the years
If they have a fleet, investigate it for cheese and either offer a new fleet or tell them they can't "bring stealth" yada yada
they bitch, but less than the loser when they lose. Cause usually the stuff you're outlawing is cheese anyway and they recognize that.
okay, the defiance study proved fruitless. That system differs in so many ways from FtM both in scale and in implementation that I can't use any part of it without completely reworking the whole FtM system from the ground up.
Does anyone want that? Seriously, if someone wants to build a completely different point system, now is the time to speak your mind.
Now, I wanted to make commanders affect the entire force, but as a lower percentage, not a 10x multiplier
The ratio of points between the command dice is where I want to go with this one. please look at it and tell me where I've gone wrong. (I've purposely normalized it to d6)
CmdMultiplier
d4 .70
d6 1.0
d8 1.3
d10 1.6
d12 1.9
CmdrValue = CmdMultiplier * #Dice * (CmdRange / 8 )
CmdPointMultipler=
1 + sum of all CmdrValues / # units in force
Now take the Boreals above and here's what you get:
1 Horde Master (General) 84
1 Hero (Personality) 56
1 Hero (Personality) 42
1 Shaman of K'Syaad (Personality) 216
1 Warriors (8 Elements) 584
1 Warriors (6 Elements) 438
1 Javelins (6 Elements) 696
1 Horse Warriors (8 Elements) 1224
1 Zealots (5 Elements) 610
2 War Mammoths (Monster 3) 424
1 Yeti (Monster 2) 123
1 Giant Polar Bear (Monster 1) 63
4,560
Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/8 CmdValue = 2
Hero 1 d6/8 CmdValue = 1
Hero 2 d8/8 CmdValue = 1.3
Total = 3.3
# units = 13
1 + 3.3 / 13 = 1.25
1.25 x 4560 = 5700 force total
Now what if you purposely take commanders with a shorter range to bring down the points.
say, the following
Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/4 CmdValue = 1
Hero 1 d6/4 CmdValue = .5
Hero 2 d8/4 CmdValue = .65
total=2.15
# units = 13
1+2.15 / 13=1.17
1.17 x 4560 = 5335
Now what if you purposely take commanders with a Longer range to bring up the points.
say, the following
Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/20 CmdValue = 28
Hero 1 d6/20 CmdValue = 14
Hero 2 d8/20 CmdValue = 18
total=60
# units = 13
1 + 60 / 13=5.6
5.6 x 4560 = 25336
So, I would say, we COULD cap the command range to 12, but I say if you want to spend the points on range 20 commanders, you deserve a 560% multiplier.
Thoughts?
I suggest playing against the Stealth Gen as a training exercise. once you can convincingly represent against the stealth gen, you've become nigh unbeatable.
I'm not saying it's not frustrating, but it IS beatable and within the rules too.
There's this guy, a wholloper, I daresay he's going to be a handful no matter what you fight.
Gotcha class (539)
Hull: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 6 5 4 3 2 1
Shields: 2 1
[a] Super Chain Gun [3/6/9, 4+, 1/1/3, Extra Hull Damage, Continuing Damage]<-- here we have a weapon that has the potential for 18 hull hits in one turn!
ab, ab, ab
Hyperdrive [O], Point-Defense System [O], Overthrusters [O], Armor Plating, Fighter Bay, Fast, Hvy, Bmbr [O], Battle Satellite [OOO]
1[Ha], 2[E], 3[H], 4[S], 5[H], 6[Q]
Kevin sent this in an email, and I actually came up with the same numbers
> Jim,
> I'll send you the XL sheet on Monday, but I can probably remember what I found from my little experiment.
> I believe the following is where I'd start with respect to point costing command point dice.
>
> Command dice 0d4 1d4 1d6 1d8 1d10 1d12
> Cost multiplier x1.0 x2.5 x3.5 x4.5 x5.5 x6.5
>
> Command dice 2d4 2d6 2d8 2d10 2d12
> Cost multiplier x5.0 x7.0 x9.0 x11.0 x13.0
>
> The above cost multipliers were found by averaging the probabilities of generating from 1 to 24 command points, and then setting the baseline at a x1.0 multiplier.
> Surprisingly enough, it works out to be the average roll for each dice roll.
So, now, I just have to figure out how this effects the force point totals.
I'm going to study Defiance now and se if I can steal ... er ... learn something from that force building system.
The pratical problem is that Commander should have a cost that reflect theyre abilities, no matter how many units they goes to command. This is to avoid unnecessary complications when you choose you're force. So, giving a cost and saying there can be one every 1000 points can solve the problem, in an abstract way I agree, but if works...
It just seems arbitrary, that's all. What if my force is made up of 5000 points and each unit had "Disciplined". Maybe I'd want one or two commanders to bolster any individual units when they get poor rolls, but there's really no need to have the commanders there.
Then, imagine they're fighting a 5000 point force with mostly "Undisciplined" units. I might take extra commanders in this case.
As soon as we dictate the force construction, I'm afraid we'll need to make all sorts of concessions for individual problems that causes. And, at some level, then all the armies become the same.
You know the orcs are under-represented by commanders, there's simply not enough Orcs who want to risk their lives for command, but it makes them more interesting to command that way.
There should be a mathematical answer to this, hopefully Kevin will attach his spreadsheet so we can look at it (hint, hint)
1) Too restrictive, imo.
2) Each unit may now take one command without spending CP from any commander. See my quote from an earlier post.
Still, I want command to make a difference. And I want command to affect the whole force.
Hmm. how to do that.
how much more effective is a force with a d10 commander than with a d8 commander?
I suggest to keep command dice at 1 dice, and fix a limit of command character (1 for every 1000 point?)
Aren't you effectively making a commander worth a percentage of the force at this point?
if you say commanders are 1 per 1000 points, then you're saying the commander is worth x/1000 of the force.
Having state my piece about the cheesiness of stealth/LS combo ad nauseum, I would advise...
PDS
shield 2
at least one huge carrier with little on it but heavy bombers
lots of quick ships with PDS shield 2
Sunbursts are of limited effect because they are randomly placed, mines get you too close, and can really hurt your own fighters.
if your opponent starts to field fighters, then bring lots of little fast ships each with a flight of interceptors.
Here's a couple of ships:
Picker class (169) (66pts without the fighters)
Hull: 4 3 2 1
Engines: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Shields: 2 1
[a] Chain Laser [4/8/12, 4+, 3/1/1, Repeating]
ab
Hyperdrive [O], Point-Defense System [O], Fighter Bay, Intc, Hvy [O]
1[HE], 2[ES], 3[HQ], 4[EQ], 5[Ha], 6[E]
Grinner class (169)
Hull: 4 3 2 1
Engines: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Shields: 2 1
[a] Chain Laser [4/8/12, 4+, 3/1/1, Repeating]
ab
Hyperdrive [O], Point-Defense System [O], Fighter Bay, Hvy, Bmbr [O]
1[HE], 2[ES], 3[HQ], 4[EQ], 5[Ha], 6[E]
Bring 5 of each of these and one of these
Fat Boy class (2245)
Hull: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 1
Shields: 2 1
[a] Anti-Fighter Defense Laser [1/2/3, 3+, 3/1/1, Repeating]
abcdef, abcdef
Hyperdrive [O], Point-Defense System [O], Fighter Bay, Hvy, Bmbr, Fast [OOOOOOOOOO], Fighter Bay, Intc, Hvy, Fast [OOOOOOOOOO], Launch Bay [OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO]
1[H2Q], 2[E2Q], 3[HQa], 4[SQ], 5[HQ], 6[2Q]
His ships will poof. At least until he gets sunbursts and uses them as anti-fighter guns.
The effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of its commanders.
However, the quality of a commander doesn't increase simply because the size of a force it's commanding increases.
That's faulty logic.
I actually said the effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of the commanders, a subtle but important difference. However, you are correct in that the size of the force has no effect on the quality of the commander. I just want the importance of command to be identified as such and mirrored in the points.
But I'm willing to listen to any suggestions at all.
Zerloon:
I thought it was simple. kind of a simplified method of the defiance formula.
Kevin:
The cost of the commanders is related to the size of the force because the effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of the commanders.
Anyway, that's where I'm headed.
that would be very cool.
They range from d4 to 2d12 (though theoretically there's no limit)
I'm looking for a way to value commanders in their effect on the force as a whole.
Remember that in FtM II any unit can move once for free (if they don't accept points from commanders)
and your suggestion is...
mj12games.com/forum → Posts by jimbeau
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