26

(18 replies, posted in Starmada)

I've played a few games solitaire and it works pretty well. The only real hang-up is that you have to plot orders and then execute them simultaneously. When played against an opponent, that is a good way to gain surprise by doing the unexpected, but obviously that is lost when played solitaire. Still, if you write the orders intelligently from each side, you do occasionally get some unexpected results when the orders are actually executed.

So, for me, I prefer it against an opponent, but it moves fast enough and cleanly enough to play solitaire as well.

Nothing says AA weapons have to be short ranged. Like I said above, a Range 9 4+ 3/1/1 weapon makes a nice general purpose weapon and isnt that expensive to field. A handful on assorted ships and you are generally pretty well protected against all but the largest Fighter swarms.

As far as Fighters not halving shields, I still think you'd have to reduce their cost accordingly or they are not worth it. 50-60CR is pretty steep for effectively an R:1 6/1/1 that is extremely vulnerable to return fire. That is 50-60 RAW CR. Almost no weapon that is that weak will add that much CR to a ship. As an example, take the following:

A Size 6, Speed 9 Shield 4 ship. Create a weapon that is R:3, 5+ 3/1/1. That weapon's base SU is only 4(!). OK, you can mount 15 of them forward firing on that ship (AB arc) That 45(!!) dice to attack and they are more accurate than Fighters at R1 (because Fighters hit on 5-6, these are going to hit 4+ at that range). The ship's CR is 123, or about the equivalent of 2-3 Squadrons of Fighters.....Obviously the Fighters are a little more versatile in that they dont have to plot their movement and can guarantee getting the first shot etc, but that ship is still getting almost 4 times the firepower with the same speed and probably more survivability (although that depends on the enemy weapons).

That said, I see Fighters as one of the potential screws to any battle. If someone brings enough of them to the battle and you HAVENT set yourself up to deal with massed Fighters, you can pretty much say good night. So, to me it behooves the players to make sure that the game isnt always played double blind when it comes to enemy forces. People should have a reasonable idea of what they are going to face to prevent 'gotchas'.

There are a number of such 'gotchas' that are possible but massed Fighters are the easiest one to pull off without seeming like a complete cheese monkey. smile Because as I said above, Fighters act a force multiplier amongst themselves. The more that are brought, the more powerful the 'alpha strike' and consequently, the less return fire they have to endure.

I would also mention that when trying to determine what WAS optimized in the game, we identified Inverted Range, Repeaters as a bit over the top for a 'fun' battle, especially if its base to-hit is 3+. At LR, it makes the hit number 2+ and with repeating, it leads to about 5.5 hits per shot (and in the case of your wife's weapon x3 for RoF = about 17 hits, x2 for Pen = about 34 Pen dice..even when fired at a shield 5 ship, that leave 5-6 to penetrate the shields and then with a 2 Dmg, thats between 10-12 damage on average) Keep in mind that that is against the largest shield factor possible. Having any lesser shields means you are likely to be incinerated in one shot. The No-Hull Damage brings the cost down considerably, but that much damage still reduces most ships to empty hulks in a round or so.

So, my bet is that she could win most games with that weaponry loadout without regard to the Fighters. Its just way too unpleasant for a 'fun' game IMO. Repeating is the only weapon without a damage cap...it can generate effectively unlimited damage on good rolls. Nothing else comes close in terms of potential damage curve. (I have a friend who graphs such things out for fun and its an eye-opener sometimes to see the results).

If you want a fun companion weapon, go with a R6 or R9 3+ 3/2/1 Range Based RoF and/or Range based Dmg/Pen and Double Range mods. It will be reasonably cheap and will again annihilate anything that comes close. So, you have your choice of staying at range and being pounded by the repeater or closing in and dying even faster to the range-based weaponry.

A lot also depends on what Optional rules you are using. We quickly found that the Emergency Thrust rule makes short-ranged weapons devastating. You can quickly negate a range advantage and if your ships are loaded with a preponderance of Range-based weaponry, you can pour out sick amounts of damage in single round.

The game provides a great framework for setting up battles. But to me, its really necessary to have the opposing ships designed to be more 'fun' than optimized. Its something my group has a hard time with, but the experiments with 'anything goes' have led to games that were basically won and lost before ever beginning. Sun Tzu states that every battle is won before its ever fought, but that doesnt lead to a very fun game. smile

Be that as it may, the system is definately flexible enough to allow for house rule changes such as what you propose for Fighters. For me, I think the current Fighter rules (with a few cost tweaks) are fine as long as the game itself is 'policed' to make sure that its going to be fun for both sides.

Please post how your Fighter changes work out in practice.

I think you just have to be careful it doesnt start sliding towards the nightmare that was the pseudo-fighter rules in SFB. Yeesh! smile

I think an easy adjustment/house rule would be to limit the number of Fighters that can stack in a hex to 2-3. 'Realism' is obviously second fiddle to gameplay and simple elegance in a rules set like Starmada so I dont see that this would be a problem. The benefits would be that huge masses of Fighters dont gang up so well and cut down on the mess on the gaming table as well.

Fleet tactics are also a pretty good foil on Fighter attacks. Escort vessels with R:6 weaponry backed up by R:9 weaponry on the main body should produce decent results. Just keep the shorter ranged guys out in front. If the Fighters attack them, the longer ranged stuff behind gets free shots. If the Fighters try and bypass the escorts, they should still be in R:6 to the escorts.

A few LR inverted or no-range mod weapons helps vs Fighters although they can be expensive to field. Use Variable RoF to get the most out of them (Shard Launcher: Range 12 3+ 3/1/1 No Range Mod/Variable RoF). These should get at least one round of fire into any Fighters that dont take a really long way around. Even at that, if you deploy them properly, you can usually get a few rounds off and that is enough to make a nice mess out of a few squadrons.

Luckily, all of these weapons are equally effective against opposing ships. So there is no fear of being defended against Fighters only to lose to the opposing line of battle! wink

We could possible consider that it is bombers that halve shields, and that fighters do not, or maybe subtract 1 from shield levels for the fighters......... It would make having bombers more deadly..... and keep the fighters out there to intercept other fighters, target drones and boarding pods, and watch for bombers..........

From an effectiveness PoV, Assault is far better than Bomber any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Assault is also better at killing Fighters than Interceptors. For 10 more CR than either you get a far more versatile Fighter that is better than either Bombers or Interceptors at their assigned role.

So, Bombers probably do need some sort of help. But I would be cautious about reducing the effectiveness of other Fighters (especially stock Fighters).

AA weapons dont have to have a short ranged. A friend of mine ported over the SFB version of the Interstellar Concordium and they bristled with 'Phasers' which are R:9 4+ 3/1/1 weapons. They are mounted in fairly high numbers and in good arcs. Vs Fighters, they hit on a 4+ at Fighter range which means 1&1/2 Fighters per shot per weapon on average. Most ships have between 4-6 Phasers (with the BBs and whatnot having upwards of 10). Its a good all-around weapon and still reduces Fighters with frightening efficiency.

For a 'dedicated' AA weapon, a R:3 3+ 2/1/1 Repeating, Dble Range Mods is almost guaranteed to kill a squadron per turn at range 1 and a R:3 3+ 3/1/1 Range Based RoF is also going to average 1 squadron per turn smoked. Neither of these does much at range, but they make fine 'scrubbers' for anything that remains adjacent. They are also small and will tear up ships that get too close as well, making them 'dual-purpose' weapons.

FWIW, for our games, we allow ships to start with one turn's worth of Fighters deployed. This still encourages Launch Bays while still giving Fighters some of their original ability to mass early. It also means that Carrier Fleets dont spend the first few turns 'wasting' time trying to back up or evade until they get everything in the air. Its just a time saver IMO.

We also dont have ships exploding till the End Phase so the Fighters cant hide behind explosions all the time. That got awful ridiculous awfully fast...

From what I've seen, Fighters tend to more effective the more that there  are (more than in just the added numbers). For example, 20 Fighters seem much more than twice as powerful as 10 Fighters which is way more than twice as powerful as 5. The reason is the first strike. The more Fighters that get to hit first the less return fire that is taken, greatly magnifying the Fighters' survivability. Survivability is the real weakpoint for Fighters so anything that helps there is a force multiplier for them. So, for us, we just tend to 'gentlemen's agreement' to not have more than a dozen or so squadrons in a 1500 point battle.

In the end, they cost CR = to their effectiveness. If they didnt halve shields, they certainly wouldnt be worth 50+ CR each. They die like flies.

Fielding 3 squadrons of Fighters probably actually costs about 180 or so CR. Instead of those three, put in a CL with a shield halving weapon and a decent damage output. I bet you could do the same damage with the DD and the CL.

The Fighters real 'schtick' is that they get to act first. So, they have a chance to wipe out a target and not suffer the return fire. The downside is that they have to be so close to the target that really cheap high RoF weaponry rips them apart with easy.

To me they feel 'correct'. If they didnt halve shields, it would make Shield 5 ships feel really much more powerful. If that is the Sci-Fi feel you are shooting for (Capital ships are the determining factor more than Fighters), then take away the halves shields of the Fighters and cut their CR down to 40 or so. That will make them effective against smaller craft, but they arent worth using on the larger craft.

In that realm, they hit on 5-6, penetrate only a 6 vs a Shield 5 Cap ship. To do even a single point of damage on average, you'd need 3 full squadrons. Even vs Shield 4 ships, 3 squadrons are only going to average 2 points of damage.

So, given their vulnerability to return fire, they have to have some sort of punch or else they dont have much of a reason to be fielded. Any number of things can take out weakly shielded ships, but not much can really touch a Shield 5 rock. The current Fighters make for a more dynamic field IMO. Its one more element in the puzzle.

33

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

It is better from the Min/Max point of view.....

This brings us back around to a discussion we had in my group.... (now down to 4 of us......

Sort of...but in the end, better is better. I mean, if you want your ship to have a viable AA ability, do you put lots of 1/2/3 weapons on it or do you go with 3/2/1 or 3/1/1? Obviously the latter two are 'better', so is that Min/Max'ing?

To me, I call it competent ship design. The same applies here with Fighters. Fighters cost 50SU and ideally 50CR. If you are trying to design a vessel that carries Fighters, do you want to pay 50 or do you want to pay more? If the latter, why would you? Its the same as the above IMO...you have a role in mind for the ship, so you set out to make sure it fulfills that role adequately. Its what any 'real' shipbuilders would set out to do as well.

That said, we've uncovered a number of areas where its pretty easy to 'break' the system. So, we've come up with a series of guidelines to follow so that our games are fun, and not optimized. In some cases some things might not be statistically 'broken', but they dramatically reduce the fun quota of the game if used (or overused).

The real trick is where to draw the line. One person's efficiency is another person's cheese or Min/Max'ing. So, it behooves each group to set the their standards ahead of time IMO. That way everyone is one the same page and you dont have situations like that you quoted above where some member are designing 'realistic' ships with Med Bays and Vehicle Bays while others are simply trying to go for the most combat-effective ship possible per SU and CR.

I think most people arent adverse to playing either way, but it just needs to be established amongst the players. YMMV

34

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

Okie, thanx. I just wanted to be sure it wasnt just a bug in the spreadsheet.

So, from what it appears, its better to have dedicated carriers than hybrid ships. Interesting way of getting there. smile

35

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

Hmm, OK, I've attached the SXCAFighters sheet.  It has a ship already on it, and its CR is 286. Adding 1 Squadron of basic Fighters is bumping it to 353, so its adding not 50, but 67 to the the CR of the ship.

Is that the way its supposed to work? Incidentally, the Shipyard sheet uses the same cost as well.

Thanks!

36

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

I'm somewhat confused by the cost of Fighters.

In the rules (particularly in the rules for customizing Fighters), it kind of implies that the CR is pretty much fixed for the Fighters (ie, Bombers cost 20% more or 60 and Assault is 40% more or 70 etc).

But when adding Fighters to a ship, the CR cost varies depending on the ship (the more divergent the Ocr and Dcr on the ship, the higher the Fighter cost for that ship). Is this a problem with the spreadsheets or is it intended that it costs more to put Fighters on some ships than others.

If its the latter, why is that the case? Do different ships seem to derive different bonuses from carrying Fighters or is it a case of wanting to encourage purpose-built CVs that dont do much else besides carrying Fighters?

Thanks!

37

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

Thanx. Thats the way I'd play it too, but I was just wondering if that was 'official' or not. smile

Related question:

Does EWS cancel the -1 for shooting at Fighters?

38

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

I haven't seen any actual Tractor Beam rules in Starmada X as such. There are Towing rules on page 37 of the Starmada X book, but its not 'Tractor Beam' that are used to pull or grab opposing ships.

39

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

Would having an EWS on your ship counteract the -1 to hit from your own ship (not the target) performing Evasive Maneuvers?

Presumably thats a yes, but many games dont allow you to cancel self-imposed penalties like that.

40

(1 replies, posted in Starmada)

Hey guys,

A friend of mine was trying to recreate some of the 40K boarding type ships in Starmada. Just using Marines can give a pretty good effect, but its an all or nothing affair...ie, either the Marines take the ship or they dont. The ship doesnt lose capability or get disrupted in any way until the deed is done.

So, as an alternate, we came up with some quick thoughts...

Use regular weapons, properly outfitted of course, to represent the boarding parties.

For example, a short ranged weapon that hits on 3+,  and does continuous, variable damage. If you feel that boarding should only occur at even closer ranges, then double range mods. If you dont think boarding pods shouldn't be affected by shields, then Ignore them or Halve them.

Using this method, there is less record keeping, and the "Marines" are knocking out systems etc as the battle rages. The continuing damage works to act like prolonged fighting aboard the ship.

Anyways, I figured I'd throw that out there for people who might want a quick and easy way to represent 'boarding'.

Its definatly a testament to how flexible the design system is! smile

41

(2 replies, posted in Starmada)

Resin-cast would be cool. I'm not really up to wanting to pay the costs for metal minis. Just to get a decent variety of one fleet style can cost upwards of $100. Thats just a bit too much for me to want to spend on a part time hobby.

How much do you figure (ballpark) resin cast minis would run?

42

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

It sounds like the greater issue is explosions providing cover for fighters, and not necessary when explosions occur, since Sunbursts can be used for the same effect.

IIRC, Sunbursts are fired during the End Phase, so they dont allow the same tactic. Vs Sunbursts, if the Fighters can fire at the ship, the ships can fire back. Not so when ships explode during the Fighter phase. This tactic allows the Fighters to hit the ships, but by the time the ships get a chance to return fire, the LOS is blocked.

Personally, I don't see the problem. I don't agree with the premise that "if you have to use X to counter Y, then Y is too powerful". With a game like Starmada -- as has been discussed on other topics, like LRS/Stealth -- you are going to have situations where a counter is absolutely necessary.

Out of curiousity, what would you suggest as a counter to this tactic that doesnt involve Fighters (or Drones, which are really just one-shot Fighters). I can't envision anything that regular ships can do to overcome this short of just not using smaller ships (and even that is no guarantee). And once you go down that path, things start to be a lost less interesting IMO.

To deal with this, I've been wondering if it wouldn't be interesting to run "tournament" games as a two-stage affair. Run the first game without restrictions; however, the loser of the first game has the chance to completely revise his fleet, while the winner has to stick with his original force. Then play the second game. The overall winner is determined by aggragate VPs.

That would make for an amusing Tournament. I think I'd rather be the person losing round 1 because its probably not too difficult to come up with something that can beat almost anything if you know exactly whats coming. smile

43

(123 replies, posted in Starmada)

To limit a faction's range to 12, unprotect the Nation sheet and change the 18 to 12 under Maximums. That should do it.

44

(123 replies, posted in Starmada)

I'd offer to upload my copy, but its already been mucked about with other changes that are no longer 'standard'.

45

(123 replies, posted in Starmada)

OldnGrey:

Thanks a lot! I knew from looking at it that the ESU was the broken link (there was no other reference to it), but I'm not skilled enough with Excel to be able to engineer a fix.

We plugged in your changes and it works great.

Thanks again!

46

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

Ok, from the rules, Fighter damage is 'instantaneous'. I'm assuming this is to ease book-keeping about what got hit when and by who. That appears to be a pretty good way to handle it.

Here is my question: Are the explosions that occur from Fighter combat also 'instantaneous'? For simplicity, it makes sense, but it leads to some really...interesting...tactics.

For example, in our game last night, one of our players was moving Fighters in to wipe out a ship and using the explosion as cover from the other ships. Its quite easy to do, especially in 1500 point battles. But even in larger battles, it fairly easy to do if you have a little patience.

So, he was able to effectively wipe out a few ships here and there each turn while being shielded from return fire from the other ships. Since there is no limit on Fighter stacking, they just pile up in the 'protected' spaces. Without Fighters of your own, its impossible to 'get them out' of those spaces or surprise them with the ship movement. It really doesnt matter how careful you are, the Fighters can usually find some spot where killing a ship will offer them immunity. So unless you are limiting yourself to ships that cant possibly be killed in one turn....(and using Bombers or Assault or a combo can make that pretty difficult).

Now while we applauded the innovation, it seemed like it would be something that would be easy to abuse, and not a lot of fun to play against. A counter for it is to have Fighters of your own, but that just means in simplest terms that the Fighters, when using this tactic to dodge return fire, are too effective (ie, if you have to use 'x' to counter 'x', than 'x' is too powerful).

The obvious thing we thought of was that explosions that occur from Fighter combat do not block LOS till the end of the regular Combat Phase. This is a simple fix, but not 100% consistant with the Fighter rules. For my money, I'd rather it not be 100% consistant, but more balanced. Upon further thought, would still be reasonably consistant because explosions dont have to occur till the end of the combat phase in general...from any source.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

47

(11 replies, posted in Starmada X)

I use the Shipyard sheet, so unfortunately I dont get the cool 'fluff' stats like Displacement or Crew size.  sad

I've devised my own little key for what size = what designation. Much of that is because I've assigned a specific miniature to each hull size designation and it makes life a whole easier when everyone can look at the miniature and know roughly what size the ship is without having to constantly ask the opponent.

As far as the designation list posted, I think it works as well as any, but I tend to use the designations a little differently. For example, I use 'Escort' as a designation for certain roles, not certain sizes. The same goes for 'Assault' or 'Heavy'. These are generally more to term my ship's capabilities/roles rather than absolute size or battery count.

Just my $.02....

48

(123 replies, posted in Starmada)

Shockwave and Stutterdrive dont work properly on regular Office either (not on my copy at least smile ).

49

(7 replies, posted in Starmada)

What types of CR totals do people tend to play with?

I ask because in looking through the posted ship designs and some other places on the web, I see ships upwards of 3000CR!  It seems like even many cruiser-type ships are designed around 1000CR each.

In my group, we've been playing with about 1500CR (and may stretch that up a bit, but not by too much).

I just cant even imagine trying to field some of those high CR ships. I mean, for 3000CR, you can have whole NAVIES of 'normal' ships. smile

Anyways, it looks like my group might be on the 'low tech' side of the universe. We've been sticking to TL0 and we try not to 'crowd' our ships with Specials. We mostly end up with small craft in the 65-125 point range, cruisers ball-parking around 150-450, and capital ships usually around 350-1000 or so at the outside.

Are we missing out on something? Personally, I'd think it would be a nightmare just trying to keep track of all the gadgets and whatnot on some of those 2500+CR monsters! smile

So, just out of idle curiosity, what do you typically play with when you sit down for a battle? 1000? 1500? 10000? Do you typically have just a few ships or larger swarms?

For the record, so far, we are looking more at 1500 CR to field between 4-9 ships.

50

(0 replies, posted in Starmada X)

Ok, not anywhere near as grandiose as BrotherAdso's contributions, but I felt I should post at least one set of ships to show everyone that despite our ease with finding loopholes and optimizations, we dont actually PLAY that way. smile

Here you go:

Hive Collective:

The Hive Collective maintains a powerful Navy of balanced ships. At the center of most Hive Fleets is a Swarm Ship capable of fielding an immense array of Fighters. Hive ships are capable opponents with a generally longer ranged weapons suite than the Terrans.

Their ships lack the sophisticated electronics common to the Republic Navy, but their larger vessels are practically living members of the Swarm and can regenerate damage taken in battles. Hive Ships have a varied array of weapons that are accurate, hard hitting, and often continue to harm the target long after impact.

All ships are TL0 across the board. I've attached the Shipyard.xls for the known ships employed by the Hive.