I plan to get three copies of this book this weekend.
You just keep writing them, Dan. I will keep buying them.
(Oh... and I will have SDG completed, first draft, ready for you to look over within two weeks)
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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by KDLadage
I plan to get three copies of this book this weekend.
You just keep writing them, Dan. I will keep buying them.
(Oh... and I will have SDG completed, first draft, ready for you to look over within two weeks)
I'm a completist, so I will get it. I just want to get one that is as "up to date" as possible.
Plus, I generally get three copies: one color (for me, and for sitting on my shelf untouched most of the time), one b/w for general use, and one b/w for my sister and her gaming group in Warsaw, MO.
(Displacement x 0.7) / 100 =
-- approximately --
Displacement / 142
So... I figure a rough estimate of
Displacement / 140
would work just fine.
Will the published LULU version of the book be updated with the errata? If so, so you have an estimate as to when this will happen?
Where is it being housed these days?
Mind?
Heck no! Like I said, I had an idea for how to set up the data so that you could have multiple ships in a single workbook without duplication of data (at least not too bad). So... the fact that the idea was grabbed, expanded, and ran with is a darn good thing.
Thanks for keeping the torch lit!
two things:
1. I believe Dan is planning to post an updated Appendix A that will include things like the weapon mod multipliers. This will be, in the end, the "definitive repository" of the correct values. That should be helpful.
2. It is good to see that my experiment in the "shipyard" sheet concept is going strong.
I am not sure I understand this one... but I will be getting it none-the-less.
Since seeing this post, I have been pouring over the rules to see if I can gleen anything from them. Nothing definitive. So... based on this, I would rule the following:
Those are my thoughts. Anyone else want to weigh in?
As far as using Seekers to attack Fighters/Strikers -- sure. You could even, if you wanted, use Seekers to attack other Seekers. That would, actually, be kinda cool...
The ability to shoot further than your opponents is cheesy.
In the tone you wrote that -- pure sarcasm? -- I agree. It is not a cheezy thing to design guns that outrange your opponent.
Seriously, range anything less than 21 on your main battery is just silly.
This statement however... it just silly.
The range for the main battery of guns on a ship is "good or bad" depending entirely on the context -- what are the ranges of the guns I am fighting? What is the accuracy of those weapons? How much IMP and DMG do they have? Any traits I should be aware of? How maneuverable are the ships carryinig those guns? How fragile are they? Any ship options that change the equasion? And so on.
Context.
Without it, no blanket statement like "range anything less than 21 on your main battery is just silly" can be taken seriously.
(IMHO, YMMV, yada yada yada)
I would love to be involved in that one... let me know if you start doing that, Dan.
Yea, Dan... I had checked there. In fact, I thought it odd that the Ship Options had the numbers listed, and weapon stats did not (in fact, I would think that Appendix A might want to include Fighter numbers as well).
No problem.
This leaves the one typo as the only thing wrong in the shipbuilder sheet.
(You are the man!)
A couple of thoughts on range:
1. The solution that Dan instituted for range 24 and range 30 is elegant enough. Below these ranges, the impacts of range are "almost, but not quite" linear, in reality. But it is close enough to truth for the game.
If you wanted to slap the honest-to-goodness impact of range into the equation, one could argue that you would need to use the ratios of the total number of hexes that are "in arc" when you select a given range.
For example, at range 3, in one arc, you have 9 hexes that you can fire into. At range 6, in that same arc, yuo now have 27 hexes that you can fire into. This is x2 range and x3 total effect! But is this difference really worth delving into once you have square-rooted the effect at the end of the design process? Maybe. Maybe not.
After all...
2. The effect of the expanded arcs causes ships to have to pay too much for overlapping arcs as well.
For example, when you have a weapon in the AB arc, you get the full impact of 2.0 arcs... no so for overlapping arcs which can pay for 2.0 arcs while getting the effect of 1.5 arcs. So there is some fudge factors going on here. Is it worth messing with? Maybe. Maybe not.
And still...
3. Dan is a guy that likes math, and so we have a chart that is fairly complex when dealing with Black Holes. When I initially wrote the rules for Black Holes they were much, much simpler and did not take into account the square-of-distance effects of gravity that I thought were too fidly for a game like this. Was this a good thing? Maybe. Maybe not.
In the end... the three things above all blend together in an odd way. This much is (I think) undeniable. But none of them are broken. None of them make the game less fun. And all of them work.
I would say leave it as it is. The premium at the upper two ranges that were added is about right to account for the growing number of additional hexes available. The weapon arc formula is much easier to calculate as it is, even if it is off by a bit in the end. And the Black hole rules are interesting, and make you think (which you should be doing if you are insane enough to be having a battle near a black hole).
All in all. About perfect.
OK... if this is there (or anywhere, for that matter), I cannot find it.
I would have thought that errata would be included in the "STUFF.ZIP" file. Not there. Not in any of them. So... if these have, indeed, been updated (which is fine, it means that the work I have been doing up to the point where I discovered these anamolies is not lost), then I can find no trace of it anywhere.
Dan: can you verify these?
Unless I am misreading something, I have discovered the following errors in the Shipbuilder spreadsheet:
I am working with CORE EDITION, Version 2.2, 24-Apr-08.
Edit: used small, olive-colored, italic text to indicate those errors that are not, in fact, errors...
I really like how it all turned out.
:-)
If you have Hull 20 ships running about... please define the hull size of a "frigate" in such a game.
In the discussions of "Ablative Armor" in other parts of the boards, it has often occured to me that, rather than giving ablative armor, making "Ablative Shielding" would make sense.
In other words, treat shielding as it is in SFB. I have have a ship with shields in all six weapon arc (name them the same: A, B, C, D, E, anf F). Normal annotation of shielding could be:
Shields:
A/B: 9
C/D: 7
E/F: 5
So, for example, this ship has 9 shields in the A arc, and 9 in the B arc; i has 7 shields in the C arc, and 7 in the D arc; and so on. Make the shielding completely ablative (ie: the first 9 points of damage that slap into the 'A' side are absorbed by the A-side shields).
Some adjustments to the definition of PEN might be in order at that point, but...
Again: I have no trouble with the idea of "Turn Cost = Velocity" if you allow for slightly larger engines in Starmada by changing that "3" int eh formula to "2" -- do that, and the idea of "Turn Cost = Velocity" is about right for me.
but boy, fixed maps in space bug me alot...
We solved that one by building a bigger map...
May a ship both accelereate and decelerate in the same round?
No. Accel/Decel in this system is a question of "how many hexes as I moving, total, this round? Not "how fast am I moving as I pass through this hex?"
Let us assume two ships, each with 6 MP and a current velocity of 3. Neither turned on the previous round, so they may turn freely as their first movement.
Both see 'something awful' dead ahead, and want to get as far away from it as possible.
By retaining its current speed, Ship 1 may turn 1 starboard (2 MP), move forward 1, turn 1 starboard (2MP) move forward 1, turn a final time to starboard (2MP) and drift forward that last hex. Its pulled a 180*, is 2 hexrows over from where it started, one hexrow 'behind' where it started, and headed away from 'something awful'
Ship 2, cunningly, goes slow to go fast. He declerates by 1 (curring his velocity to 2 and his turn cost by 1). He then makes the same series of moves and starboard turns as his cousin, while at speed 2. After his last turn, he uses his 3 remaining MPs to floor it, ending up on the same hexrow and heading as ship 1, but 2 hexes further away from 'something awful'
Possible as you see it?
Nope.
*edit*
And in SIMS, may a ship 'decelerate' beyond speed 0, such that it has a negative velocity (IE, is in reverse, not a realspace 'negative' velocity, which would be.. very strange)
I have not made a ruling yet on allowing for reverse movement just yet. I, personally think it is alright... but I get nightmares on Kaufman Retrograde games of Star Fleet Battles...
There are only two things I would change:
1) Get rid of moving one space between turns. Is there a reason for this rule? It feels like a holdover from tank movement.
2) Use speed, rather than ceil(speed/2) as the turn cost. I'm still open to argument here, but it seems good to me if turning is difficult -- makes arcs matter.
1. It is a hold over, and keeps ships from spinning like tops. I would like to see some arc in the moment. I will consider it though... some more testing this weekend.
2. I am considering it. Right now, I like them to have some maneuverability at higher speeds (meaning in the 6-9 range). If I do that -- change the cost of turns to = speed -- then I would want to reinstance the smaller engine rule (change the 3 in the engine formula to a 2).
As Dan has said, your gameboard will constrain the (practical) movement allowances.
Also, if the movment were, in effect, going to be increased, via a method similar to SIMS, couldn't weapon ranges also be increased? Right now I believe there's a theoretical maximum. Couldn't you just do away with that, and let *any* ranges be used? The point costing should be able to handle that.
Marcus, you're historical analogy is a good one. But I'm thinking that in the future, effective weapon ranges will probably keep pace with ship speeds, so that the two will remain relative (no pun intended).
Kevin
We have experimented with ships that had weapon ranges as large as 33 hexes (I have a large gaming table). It worked just fine.
KDLadage wrote:Any suggestions on how to impose a speed limit without just saying that a ship cannot exceed "X" hexes per turn? I mean, if you say "10" for example, then several of Rich Bowman's designs are pointless, as they have engine ratings that exceed 10.[/list]
I still don't understand why a speed limit is necessary. Speeds will be inherently limited by two factors:
1) The size of the game board, and
2) The increased cost of maneuvering at higher speeds.
I am not convinced one is needed. I am just thinking via keyboard.
So... what do you think of this system as it stands?
And I agree. A speed limit may be what I end up going with if all else fails. But I am reluctant, and for the reasons I said.
Iron Stars, for example, sets an upper limit on speed by stating that only 50% of the inertia is maintained from round to round. Using such a system in an inertia based movement scheme in Starmada would bmean that, if I have an Engine Rating of 10, my maximum speed is:
And this ship can maintain a speed of 19 by keeping full bore on the engines; otherwise, it begine to slow down. This works well in an environment where you are using vern-like/wellsian physics.
So... what "hand-waving" works best to create a pseudo-plausable speed limit in the modern world's knowledge Einsteinian physics? I cannot think of any that maintain some semblance with inertia and offer up a solution to speed limits without being a hard-cap on such things that are rules directed, instead of a consequence of the rules themselves.
Any suggestions on how to impose a speed limit without just saying that a ship cannot exceed "X" hexes per turn? I mean, if you say "10" for example, then several of Rich Bowman's designs are pointless, as they have engine ratings that exceed 10.[/list]
mj12games.com/forum → Posts by KDLadage
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