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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by Sirrob01
Thanks both, hopefully I'll have some sort of test version ready soon.
It was slow going this weekend I managed to get about half way through the Combo weapons (ie 2 out of 4 subframes now work). I'll keep working on the builder during the week and on the weekend 
.
Base weapons are done at last hopefully...
Onto the redesign of the combo weapon layout and get the code fully working.
I've just discovered a way of resetting fields if an earlier field is played with rendering that choice "illegal".
example
Say I start to design a weapon and set the IR to 4 then I decide I want it to be phase (an earlier choice), changing the earlier choice to phase will reset the IR back to default.
Now the question becomes do I do this kind of check at the army SR/TR level as well.
example
I start of with yes I can build phase weapons and design up 4 unique frames, later I decide I don't want phase weapons and adjust that field back to none. I could make it so those 4 designed weapons will also part rest, I say part as what it'd do is just turn them into identical stat'd frames but no longer phase, the phase box would be reset to "no" and the corresponding PV would then update to reflect the non phase pv cost.
Problem with the above is if you adjusted something by mistake you'd need to go back and reedit the affected frames. the risk of not doing it is you forget about a frame and end up with an illegal army. At the moment I'm leaning towards were I can do the reversion as hopefully if you did make a mistake you could just reload your army file.
The other problem with the above is it's a bundle more script code meaning more time to finish, however so this doesn't turn into vapourware I can upload a alpha version (after I get base weapons working) for people (okay Sam ) to play with while I continue to work on changes. The risk with that will be an army designed on the alpha version probably wont load properly on later versions and naturally there will be a pile of bugs and stuff not working 100%
thoughts?
Thanks Sam
I took a little break from scripting but got back into it, I have weapons and combo weapon sorted. Weapons I just have to write the PV totaling calculation. Then I'll move to combo weapons, bit of work there as I need to adjust the template so it can take 4 subframes then it's just duplicate all the rules for weapon on each subframe of a weapon combo.
Then air strikes, grenades and cdw's to go and the first rough draft should be done. (forgot also need to correct the export script a little)
Probably something like 10-25 hours of effort to go, depending on how dedicated I can be
I'm finalizing up the vehicle building components, basically just the value calculation formula to do. Just a quick question
my interpretation is vehicle calculations work like this:
(basepv x dc) + (sdcpv x sdcpoints) = basic frame cost (bfc)
then
bfc x field cost = field cost addition(fca)
for a total frame cost of
bfc + fca = total
Its the field cost I really want checked/confirmed as the examples don't seem to have a complex multi dc/sdc example and including the sdc as part of the base cost adds to the field save pv total.
ie I've assumed it doesn't work like this:
basepv x dc = bfc
bfc x field cost = fca
(sdcpv*sdcpoints) + bfc + fca = total
although following the explicit build rules sdc does come at step 3 so the above could be right, although the examples over the page seem to indicate the first is correct.
I've never built an afv/apc with field saves.... 8-)
edit---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry missed a Q
Rounding when does it occur?
If I had a complex apc vehicle with different front to side rear armour and field saves.
When does rounding occur?
Do I round up at each step
ie
calculate basepv and roundup
calculate field save cost and round up
add it all together.
or does rounding only occur at the end
calculate basepv
calculate base field save
total and then roundup
I relies this only makes a 1pv difference in a worst case but I'd like to get it right. For the moment I'm assumign the first method, I've also made the assumption that sdc is always purchased at the more expensive frame cost similar to hero costs for infantry.
edit---------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming the above assumptions are correct vehicles are now done. I'll move along to weapon frames next
All infantry frames are now working, I divided the infantry up into 6 subtypes:
SI -Size 1/2 DC 1
PI - Size 1/2 DC 1
SI Size 3 DC 2
PI Size 3 DC 2
SI Size 3 DC 3
PI Size 3 DC 3
This does leave some blank options ie the way the cards setup you could set Size to 1 and DC to 3 and as there are no frames available for that combo no pick list is available. So it's handy to have the book around so you can follow the army builder and not pick a null combo. This also helps keep the pick lists down to a more manageable level as well.
The overall army setup page is also working so I'm approximately halfway done, I suspect vehicles will be quicker as I can re-use most if not all the infantry code simply by adding some new categories. I'll see if I can get all vehicles working by the end of the weekend
thanks tnjrp, least I know I've read and understood it right .
Getting through the infantry and just doing some error checking.
Need someone to check my math here:
On page 76 the Vobian Specter example I'm getting 37pv for cost not 36pv.
elite M4SAR+4 = 16PV
+5 Field save = 1.08x16 = 17.28 - does this defiantly roundup to 18?
1@9+ ref +2 = 3
pretty sure it's the field save step that's different, is that a positive roundup always on field saves?
thanks
This will be a little longer as I'm seeing if I can build more army buidler/frame builder stuff in (got an okay to give it a try). I've almost got basic SI infantry frames done. If I can get those to work I can't see why any of the others will not be achievable.
Combo weapons and Integral weapons might present some issue's, the later more than the former, but i'll see how I go.
I'm off to finish off the last little bit of the hth calculation function. Then I can do the last little function to calc the total frame pv for SI inf.
Thanks Sam feel free to provide any comments on anything so far.
I've hit what I think is my first limit with the mse tool, although it could be my lack of scripting skill with the tool . Anyways basically you'll have to manually adjust the PV value of any weapons in a turret. The tool is a little limited when it comes to dynamic list creation..ie I'm already bending it well beyond what it was designed for . I might yet come up with a workaround or gain a level in mse scripting and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think I could actually turn this into a full army builder without to much trouble, the frame tables are probably the trickiest part but I think they could be done using lists.
I know an army builder for defiance is a no go area so I'll leave it out. I'm just working on the last few layout tweaks and trying to save even more manually typing. I figure the smallest amount of manual data entry the better, it may mean at certain points to get the full lists of options to appear I'll need to save and refresh but I've put reminders in the drop down lists.
Export script is finished, so now once all the data is entered you can export a fairly standard looking army list in html format. I tested it in Firfox 3.6 and IE8 and both those versions seem to render it okay.
I tried to insert some mandated page breaks so as to minimize tables across pages break syndrome when you print, however I've only been partly successful and really need to add further sophistication into the export script, but it's likely I'll be the only one who uses it so it's very low on my list to fix (ie very time consuming with minimal gains)
I've attached a zip file with a copy of the Imperial Army with Pdf of cards (sorry I haven't added images to every card yet), Army list in html format and some card backs, if anyone wants to have a look and if you spot any mistakes drop a reply .
I'm going to tidy up the code on the mse module make a minor alteration to font size and possibly font type (thoughts?), add a pick list for afv damage chart.
Once the above's done I'll upload the module to the mse site for checking and for anyone to download .
Slow going as I've been sick as well as trying to get this running. I've got a partial export script working...well I guess you could say it's fully working I just need to finish making it prettier with css and figure out how to group cards together in batches. Summary cover page:
[attachment=0]output.jpg[/attachment]
I do need to make a new base template and category for grenades/CDW's and Airstrikes. I'm probably talking to myself again
I've managed to get the set info to store the basic SR-TR/FR calculations so those parts can all be picked selected when you set up the set info tab
I don't want to go to far down turning this into an army creation tool so I wont be adding scripting to make actual frames inside the app, ie you'll need to manually type that data in. This should also mean not to much secret book stuff is given away .
I need to work on the card layout a little and build the export to html script so the full army list can be exported and printed (I hope) straight from mse once it's entered .
[attachment=0]MSE Army Overview.png[/attachment]
I've been mucking around with MSE(http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/) to try and create Defiance frame card templates. I plan on using them as quick reference cards during play.
I've got a bit of a defiance mse module working at the moment, few picy's (these print standard playing card size):
[attachment=2]infantryandweapon.png[/attachment]
[attachment=1]AFVandLV_APC.png[/attachment]
[attachment=0]mech.png[/attachment]
There's a separate combo weapon template as well but I haven't got around to inputting a combo weapon yet .
I'm trying to add some smarts to the templates so there are more drop down lists and less manual typing to try and save some double data entry but tutorials for mse are few and far between so it's slow going .
Have a look at Air strikes as well, as it's an off board event these might fit as a base model guide slightly better re points costs etc.
Good idea on the TA, although you'll need to hammer yourself with the costs, be careful using reserves as a basis. Admittedly I've only seen it used once but the rule in it's current form (see discussions in other thread). Make it highly effective for a cost of 1 TR. If I was building a rule exploiting army Reserves would be one of my top picks for TA at this point.
To do it as a TA you could base it on reserves but remove the requirement for 12" in from the sides. Depending on how often the Pfhor fold space you could make it 1 use only for a cost 2-3 TR or you could increase the TR costs upwards by the base multiple for each usage avaliable. Depending on the limitations you built into the TA would alter the TR costs for example force the unit "teleported" to be considered on maneuver orders of sprint/jump/charge.
Nothing directly myself.
I have no direct knowledge on the Pfhor race other than the 10secs of wiki reading I just did, anyways some of the cuff thoughts (My assumptions are it's unlimited use and you can within reason pin point the location you wish to appear)
You could make it an Infantry unit Augmentation instead of CDW, I'm unsure if the teleportation ability is a built in species trait or technology and if all units/frames have it available. Aug's can be made available or not available for a frame simply by listing or not listing them under that frames description, Conversely CDW's tend to be available to every frame.
If you went with a straight I can teleport anywhere with pinpoint accuracy and fire afterwards I'd make it cost a lot in pv to balance you might be looking at as much as 40-100pv per figure fielded not per unit. To give you a frame of reference Pv on Infantry frames increases by about 25% per movement point increase if AR stays the same.
To help lower the effectiveness and hence lower pv cost per figure, although you'll probably need to pick what fits the spirit of the PfHor army/race;
~ I'd look at adding some limitations 1-2 uses only
~ limited range eg max tele of 10-15inch's
~ No firing after a tele
~ Making it less pinpint accurate, ie you could use the stock IF rule + smokingwreckages altered IF fire scatter rule
~ Make all figures (not elite) jump and appear at the same time, so not 1 figure teleports and lands and opponent then decides to cover fire or not (again assumed not elite). Instead all figures jump at the same time and appear at the same time hence your opponent can cover against all. This makes them very vulnerable to cover fire
I can see teleportation being powerful but if you balance it out with some disadvantages + appropriate pv costs it should not be to unbalancing. You'll probably need to do some play testing to get the pv value right. Your going to need to play a lot of games as defiance can throw you a lot of curved balls resulting in unexpected whole of unit death which is not indicative of the the frames effectiveness/abilities over multiple games.
Anyways others with more experience with the rules than me check in semi-regularly so hopefully they'll chip in some thoughts
Good Luck
Did this a while ago for myself and smoking, just some color added to the base/stock tokens. They seem to work best mounted to some thicker card.
[attachment=0]Coloured Markers.pdf[/attachment]
Not sure if anyone else might find this useful but I've been using it as a bit of a guide as to the look of the heaviness of a particular AR rating.
All the images are taken from the defiance source book, left the artist name intact anyways any issues I'm sure cricket can delete the attachment
[attachment=0]AR Chart.gif[/attachment]
Do you have to reveal how many copies of said firearm your infantry are carrying?
I haven't looked them over to closely but phase weapons are another area I want to poke around in, I think plenty of scope there for interest although I'll avoid phasing bracing expanded weapons...
unfortunately the Jedi are DC2 size3 SI, so they are going to need to be fielded adhoc almost every time...of course the nasty ranged force powers I gave them help a lot . If he's a commander I thought he could be fielded solo even from the beginning of the game (p19 last paragraph on the page), am I reading that right?
Yes I did the same flicking through the standard lists and checking those but the ones in the book tend to only have 1-2 vehicle options total. The star marines run the other way with 75% adhoc and don't really list any exclusive vehicle units, the other lists just seem to approach vechiles as 1 type per unit or specify 1X, 2Y's, 1Z.
Checking some of the other infantry combo units it does seem to specify were 2 are listed a split so that the minimum purchasable is for example 4 with a mix of both units and then the total of both if purchased at max = total unit size for army. But I couldn't find an example of 3-4 mixed frame unit...
I went back and double checked in case the rules said "Type" not "Quality" but it's definitely quality, I''m also at a bit of lose on how to interpret the rule further, the above would appear valid, so long as I never fielded less than 2 frames or 9 frames max from the options available for the unit.
This would then seem to be fairly flexible and these are my vehicle units so far..although if 0 is a valid choice the last one is all I ever need:
Clone Trooper Light Attack Group (Exclusive)
0-9 BARC Speeders
0-9 AT-PTs
Clone Trooper Fast Attack Group (Exclusive)
0-9 BARC Speeders
0-9 Republic Troop Transports
Clone Trooper Attack Group (Exclusive)
0-9 BARC Speeders
0-9 AT-PTs
0-9 Republic Troop Transports
Clone Trooper Heavy Attack Group(Exclusive)
0-9 BARC Speeders
0-9 AT-PTs
0-9 Republic Troop Transports
0-9 TX-130 Saber-Class Fighter Tanks
Clone Trooper Assault Attack Group(Exclusive)
0-9 BARC Speeders
0-9 AT-PTs
0-9 Republic Troop Transports
0-9 TX-130 Saber-Class Fighter Tanks
0-9 AT-APs
Even if the above isn't legal it should be an easy matter to add in some fixed numbers for each one. Hopefully Demian might drop by and provide some guidance on this issue. :ugeek:
Opps, forgot about the not mixing quality types, that makes it slightly harder but I can still field 25% adhoc as size 3 Infantry or something else.
Trying about 2000 points
Stand unit (E)- light cavalry: 3 of each BARC and AT-PT for about 540 points
Stand Unit - Clones Troopers about 400points
Stand Unit - Clone Troopers about 400 points
Stand Unit - Jet Clone Trooper about 400 points
Ad hoc - Jedi Commander hero about 300 points
I'd get a total of 5 initiative cards + 1 command card and the equipment/troop spread seems reasonable
Trying a large 4000 points
Stand Unit (E) - Cavalry Support - 3 of each BARC/AT-PT, 2 Republic Troop Trans - 950
Stand Unit - Clones Troopers about 400 points
Stand Unit - Clone Troopers about 400 points
Stand Unit - Clone Troopers about 400 points
Stand Unit - Jet Clone Trooper about 400 points
Stand Unit - Jet Clone Trooper about 400 points
Ad hoc - Jedi Commander hero about 300 points
Ad hoc - TX 130 tank about + Republic Troop transport - 750points
8 Initiative cards + 1 Command card and almost 50% vehicles, although the adhoc is just over 25%
I might be better of switching the adhoc and vehicle %, to add versatility back into the army although you do lose the ability to use command cards on them...annoying. Exclusivity seems to be a tough rule to work around, saying that though it does force you to make sure your army is made up of a fair % of regular soldiers. It doesn't break down as badly as I thought it would at larger force sizes as long as you make some standard units that mix up vehicle types.
Sam do you know if I can specify 1 vehicle in standard unit? this would make them a little more versatile. (Re-checking the rules 2 does seem to be the minimum)
edit:
just had a thought(slow brain) as a vehicles minimum unit size is 2 if I did have:
Light Cavalry Support Unit
2-6 BARC Speeders
2-4 AT-PT's
To meet the 2 vehicles in a unit rule I could have 1 of each? I think this is what you were driving at Sam and it makes sense. So ti would be:
Light Cavalry Support Unit
1-6 BARC Speeders
1-4 AT-PT's
What happens if I have 4 options? Could I specify them as from 0-X number? since you could field 0 of 1 frame type and 2 of another (I could do that in the above unit in theory)?
Assault Cav Unit
0-6 BARC Speeders
0-4 AT-PT's
0-4 Troop trans
0-2 TX-130's
0-2 AT-AP's
that opens up a world of options.... 
True enough, there does seem to be a fair amount of sudden unit death, When we get ADR truly thrown into the mix I can't see 1000point game going longer than 30-40mins.
I managed to build a nasty 1 shot braced rocket launcher which had a nasty range plus IF on 4" +5 which cost 9 points...I was trying to exploit the rules this gave max versatility load up with 1-unlimted number of shots through sidearm purchasing providing the troops carrying it with a massive intimidation factor after the first game. ie opponent wont know if there a 1 shot wonder or be raining death on them for 6 turns and hence potentially over commitment resources to remove them from the game. I was trying hard to abuse the rules.
I'll have to give it a shot, I'll see if I can talk Carb or someone else into another game, need to get a "real" table top built up so we can use proper 28mm movement.
Yes I was hoping Terrain mastery and smoke would help negate the AOE effect which they do quiet well when the AOE weapon is used in LOS fire mode. Just when you fire it IF mode both those advantages are totally negated and terrain is negated leaving you effectively sitting in the open. Greater than 15" away if the targets in cover you'd never fire out of IF mode...unless of course it is meant to be exploding on tree tops (p42 the italics text in the little box at the end of the first column, which would help unless it was cluster fire 
). Just seems overally harsh to have all those things negated by 1 fairly standard fire mode.
I'd be better of re-tooling the army, to remove the SR/TR spent on terrain mastery and sink it into more adhoc % or more vehicle % or even a different tac advantage.
This would be a shame as then I can't really see the use of the terrain mastery tactical advantage it costs 3 TR to buy 15% of your standard 20 points and the advantage can be negated by simply firing in IF mode? None of the other tac advantages are as easy to defeat, as per other thread reservists are practically unstoppable and cost 1/3 the TR points :?:
((it's starting to look like we are monopolizing this board ))
I know I'm not much help . To me it reads as if they just get deployed out as per normal.
This is what I'm running off:
"or up to 12" in , along either side edge"
I'm assuming "in" means in from the side edge, some S3 infantry would have problems even in theory manoeuvrings in 12", also for example fast attack specifies on maneuver orders so I think it would have been included.
Interestingly enough that last sentence to me seems a little ambiguous.
"or up to 12" in , along either side edge"
Does it mean 12" in from any were on the side edge. I'm pretty sure that's how Steve's boy's hurt you bad as they deployed right on your left flank.
or
Does it mean 12" up from the standard deployment edge alone each side edge ie you get to come in from the side but not that far up on the side?
It is a fairly low cost Tactical Advantage, fast advance is twice the cost and doesn't seem half as effective to me if the first interpretation is accurate.
Just my thoughts.
mj12games.com/forum → Posts by Sirrob01
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