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For example, if we took three fleets which were identical except in the weapon stats the first having all weapons (ROF/IMP/DMG) of (3/1/1) a second with all weapons (1/3/1) and the third with all weapons (1/1/3) and played them move for move and roll for roll against a mixed fleet they would all do exactly the same except for a few minor perturbations each way due to the sequencing. You would not see that any of the fleets showed any specific advantage or disadvantage against any other type of ship regardless of the enemies size or shields.
In other words if you expect that a high ROF does better against small ships, high DMG does better against large ships or high IMP does better against tough ships, your wrong... dead wrong... seriously, they're all exactly the same.
With all due respect, you're wrong, Dan's already shown you the statistical basis for why you're wrong, and you haven't played enough to see the math in action. RoF is slightly better than Impact, which in turn is better than Damage. Not by much, but even small statistical edges become more readily apparent when you have large numbers of weapons firing. You can "not buy" the first blood argument all you like, but the numbers won't change. Your 3/1/1 fleet would kick a 1/1/3 fleet to death in short order if the design system didn't compensate for RoF's superiority.
The "best against target type X" effects you're trying to get out of raw RoF/Imp/Dam are modelled with weapon traits like Piercing, Anti-Fighter, etc. If Impact bothers you so much, do what many people do and just set it to 1 for all weapons. You'll lose a little bit of versatility, but you'll notice the difference between RoF and Dam a lot sooner.
Obvious question is how you determine what the range is when you do make the attack roll. Is it "locked in" when you announce the target? If so, you can't run away from it, which seems odd.
I haven't tried the SFB-Starmada crossover rules, but you're misremembering plasmas in SFB badly. The Plasma-S in seeking mode could knock down just about any shield a cruiser carries out to range 10, and was serious damage out to 15-ish. If you were running away from it at speed it was less of a threat, but closing just extends the high-damage threat zone. The two plasma-S torps on a K5R ought to take a frigate and (barring a weasel) crush it like an eggshell if you're modelling SFB even semi-accurately, and that's without the little plasma-F torps the refits added or the phaser array firing.
No frigate should be able to hold up to a cruiser. If the point values are making them similar in value, there's something wrong with the translation between systems.
underling wrote:I see posts like this every so often, and I'm not sure I understand the apparent need to min-max.
If there seems to consistently be a problem when excesses like the above are used, my question is, why do you do it?
It just doesn't seem like it'd be much fun.
Getting to this belatedly, I think the problem may be that it isn't "consistently" a problem, it's an occasional rock-paper-scissors mismatch that occurs, and therefore the shock makes it feel like more of an issue than it really is. The strikers the OP was using are easily countered for a fraction of their cost if you expect them, or are just building to cover a wide variety of potential threats. Even the shield-ignoring/halves shields/high-piercing traits I hate so much are easily countered - they're a huge waste against a swarming fleet of ships with low or no shields, or a mob of fighters/strikers for that matter. We skip on them locally because we prefer to keep the shield penetration mechanic meaningful, but that doesn't make an argument for everyone doing it. There's something that "breaks" just about any fleet configuration out there - just a question of how often you wind up facing it.
For one-off games, adjusting the VP cost of expendable stuff by a significant factor might help, but you'd have to include an increase of some kind for ships with One-Shot and/or Ammo weapons as well. Hard to say what an appropriate increase might be, it's likely to be very situational. Slow weapon users might need a bump as well, but I doubt it - I've never seen the level of problem with them I have with extreme striker/fighter/one-shot fleets.
That was our opinion as well - we play Piercing +1 only. I'd halfway forgotten Piercing even came in +2 and +3 variants, truth being told. You'll note that it doesn't in SFO, which is again a Good Thing in my book.
I think part of the problem is that the number of options (when using everything unrestricted) to bypass defenses is much larger than the number of ways to make yourself tougher to kill. There are millions of combos of weapon traits, most of which make weapons better at poking holes in things. Defensively, you've got shields, a few things like countersmeasures and cloak, and other than that you're counting on luck and clever maneuvering. You can't even buy extra hull boxes, unless I've missed something in a supplement somewhere. Just plain fewer options.
Perhaps stop treating the Ancient ubergun as a single wepon, then? Buy as many of them as you want/need/can fit, give the a home penalty trait that prevents them from firing at multiple targets (or did that one finally show up in a supplement somewhere? - I can remember arguing about including it as early as Compendium), and call it a single weapon that degrades with damage rather than an all-or-nothing megacannon. Bit like the mid-period spinal mounts, without all the weird quirks.
shields have been right out of the question since the Halves / Ignores traits were released...
Agreed, which is why we don't play with Halves/Ignores Shields locally. Their departure from the core SAE was one of the best things in that edition. Their return is close to the worst. Very glad they didn't ooze into SFO, and hope never to see them there.
Regen is also a decent way to model any kind of power absorbtion defense - black globes, Andromedan PA panels, and maybe these energy diffuser things - where a ship can soak up damage for a while but falls apart quick (or explodes) when the capacitor is finally overloaded. Just think of "hull" as being "capacitor space remaining" instead and your regenration becomes the amount of energy bled out of the batteries that round. The ship's actual hull strength is kind of meaningless, since most ships with this kind of defense pop like soap bubbles when you finally overfill them - usually with some "leak" damage bleeding through beforehand, which covers the gradual degradation of weapons/shields/movement as well.
Boneless wrote:Heavens, those are like 100 point missiles. How many were in the air in a 4000 point game? Anyway, I always carry 25 point baby fighters just to CAP-dogfight things like that; having no fighters means you deserve to eat a few missiles.
That's what I was thinking myself - or cheap striker/seeker designs built for anti-missile/anti-fighter work. A few of those are generally worth bringing to the table IME.
How huge is huge? The launch rate restrictions limit how many any given ship can put in the air per turn, even with launch tubes. Yours are kind of high-end and operate in big flights to minimize that, but how many were there, and did the enemy fleet have fighters/strikers/seekers of its own built for defense against that sort of thing?
So put the info back up where the rest of us can get at it. There were some neat ideas being kicked around with that setting, and I don't mean fake episode guides. You've said settings are the hard part for you - SFO got quite a bit of free input from the peanut gallery. SF Omega, that is - Fleet Ops has made SFO a poor abbreviation for either.
That's what we should have done with Space Fleet Omega years ago. Before the wiki got trashed it was growing into a perfectly good setting for a game, and still a great in-joke.
Dan, you want to comment on this thread?
http://www.star-ranger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6521
That's one of your active competitors on there saying this game's original system has been abandoned entirely in favor of the Starmada port. If that's true, I'd like to know about it. If it isn't, I'd like to see him corrected publicly. The makers of Colonial Battlefleet have a tendency toward overstatement and hyperbole, but it has been an awfully long time since there was any serious discussion of more product for IS. Shall I stop holding my breath, metaphorically speaking?
Rats, no ISC? I always liked the militant peaceniks.
No, only double.
But you have to admit it would be funny - about on par with the old GURPS: Rifts sourcebook joke in Murphy's Rules. Or perhaps Candyland of Cthulhu.
Second post here:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=195155
Come on, you know you want to do a Full Thrust-Starmada crossover book set in the Space Fleet Omega universe.
Khurasan also makes the Green Slime:
http://paintedterrain.com/PaintingPortfolio.aspx
Stat those up while you're at it.
Yes, lots of good ideas there. A sadly underappreciated set of rules, and with Thane having closed up shop, it seems unlikely to get further material or exposure. Shame, really.
Nomad wrote:Governorflax wrote:And even more off the original point, what about micro jumps such as get in some of Elizabeth Moon's military SF? Would be an utterly different game with timing and manouever much more critical.
That's an awesome idea! Not sure how you'd implement it, though...
Take a look at Battleshift here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071113031207/http://www.thanesgames.com/battleshift/bsmain.htm
One of the few games I've seen that incorporated tactical hyperjumps right from word one, and fairly good at it too. Easy to crib ideas for Starmada, especially since you're plotting movement anyway. Thane's site is gone but the archives still work, albeit slowly.
Nice work, good paint jobs and a nice turn of speed.
I really have to do a Brigade order one day soon. They do have some very nice stuff, and it'll fit perfectly with my existing GZG fleets.
If you're really trying to model FS:A as accurately as possible, the datagroup sizes should correspond to the maximum squadron sizes in the original game. Having larger squadrons is a major edge for races like the Sorylians and (to a lesser degree) the Aquans, and that should be reflected in a port.
OTOH, the more I've played FS:A the more I question why anyone would want to. The universe isn't that compelling, the rules are full of typos, the design system is easily broken, and the gameplay is about 50% slower than it needs to be because of rotten design. Better to chuck the lame vestiges of the parent game and just stat the (relatively) cool ship minis to suit your own play style in Starmada. Even then I don't know how you'd ever play with them on a hex map, but Starmada does work gridless as well.
Well, you could resort to using them in flights of 2-6 when they're operating from a big carrier, while ones deployed in small numbers act as solo flights. No real reason you can't have both types flying around, and it would make the book-keeping more manageable. Also allows for the "hero ship" phenomenon applied at the fighter level. Kari probably qualifies for that kind of status, even if she doesn't think she does.
EDIT: I see he's trying to make afull-time job out of the strip.
http://www.davidcsimon.com/crimsondark/index.php?view=support
Interesting. You have to ask yourself if it's worth $5 a month to get to read the short stories and maybe get an extra strip every week. Better deal than my White Dwarf subscription was, anyway.
The fighters in the strip seem to operate independently a lot, doing them as one-craft flights would seem to be the way to go to retain that flexibility. And look at the "hero" ship - it's got one fighter, and that only by salvaging it. Pretty much have to do a solo fighter to represent that.
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