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mj12games.com/forum → Iron Stars → Air Ships of Iron Stars
Castle in the Sky (a Myazaki film) has a couple good examples of a zepplin type of air ship. Also, there is the rare element Aetherium...a crystal that (plot line subjective here) be incorporated into the steel of the ship adding bouyancy. Such crystals are found only in the K-Belt, so far, and are hideously rare.
Then again, I'm still good with the standard air ship stuff. Goliath makes an interesting example of a zepplin battleship. :geek:
Then again, I'm still good with the standard air ship stuff. Goliath makes an interesting example of a zepplin battleship.
You are making music to my ears, Mr. go0gleplex.
Eh.perhaps there's an alloy of Cavorite that's lighter than air? or at least not as heavy as what's traditional in Zeppelins?
Hmmm...??
Hope these don't get munged up...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6okRQZMGdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5boCKoH1Wg
With Hydrosteel being as strong and light as it is, instead of being filled with light gases couldn't Dirigibles be filled with Vacuum...
erm... or not filled with vacuum, if that makes more sense. That would give a hell of a lot of lift!
Also, what about the hybrid lift envelope/lifting wing designs that keep almost being the next big thing in aviation. Or those cool magnus spheres or cyclo-cranes. Somewhere amid that lot you'd have to end up with flying fortresses.
Personally I LOVE the idea that Cavorite is too powerful and unstable to allow use in atmosphere (like trying to keep a bubble under a cup in the bath) - the whole idea completely reverses the issues real space agencies face today. Of course, once a scientific principle is discovered you'd be hard pressed not to find it being used somewhere in the natural order. Space 1889 'liftwood' out there somewhere?
With Hydrosteel being as strong and light as it is, instead of being filled with light gases couldn't Dirigibles be filled with Vacuum...
erm... or not filled with vacuum, if that makes more sense. That would give a hell of a lot of lift!
Keeping a vacuum would be a lot harder than simply filling the void with a lighter-than-air gas. I realize that Iron Stars is sci-fi, but the difference between good scifi and simple fantasy is the number of real-world physical constraints you break.
If Dan's going to object to using Cavorite Dirigibles because of the atmospheric turbulence, I'd have to object to soccer-stadium-sized vacuum chambers with no leakage. 
Also, what about the hybrid lift envelope/lifting wing designs that keep almost being the next big thing in aviation. Or those cool magnus spheres or cyclo-cranes. Somewhere amid that lot you'd have to end up with flying fortresses.
If we get Improved Zeppelins, I'll ponder lifting surfaces on them. The only reason for them is the use of Helium instead of proper hydrogen....
Personally I LOVE the idea that Cavorite is too powerful and unstable to allow use in atmosphere (like trying to keep a bubble under a cup in the bath) - the whole idea completely reverses the issues real space agencies face today. Of course, once a scientific principle is discovered you'd be hard pressed not to find it being used somewhere in the natural order. Space 1889 'liftwood' out there somewhere?
By pondering the real-world consequences, you end up with a more believeable setting...I've come around to Dan's point of view on this - Cavorite is not normally used in atmosphere - but I'd still like to see Iron Stars incorporate Airships at some point....
Liftwood? Eh, as a concept, it leaves me cold.
Nice breakdown Art Fairy, thanks for the feedback on my post
I see your point about vacuum zeps, although we're already making ether ships that are at least reasonably airtight in your setting. Without knowing just how lighter and stronger our 'unobtainium' substance Wasserstahl is I was just plucking at straws. Not possible to include pumps to cope with leakage?
My favorite fantasy airships are the ones from 'Howl's moving Castle', Hybrid Lift Airframe Bomber types. There's a cool moment when one of the airships has it's engines disabled, instead of plummeting to the ground like a stricken plane it just starts losing altitude is a leasurely manner.
Sorry to use the L word, wasn't suggesting a rip from 'that other game', just the principle of biomimicry. It would be an awesome moment to discover some otherworldly element/organism similarly shielding itself from the effects of gravity.
Oh, another thought regarding gases involved, I'm sure when I read up about the Graf and Hindenburg that the Germans wanted to put a hydrogen gas envelope INSIDE a helium gas envelope. That way you gain the improved lift of a greater volume of hydrogen but have it encased in a safety shield of helium.
But as fun as airships are in concept, (as mentioned before on this forum) for them to serve as more that carriers/observers you have to dip your toes in that fantasy pool.
Nice breakdown Art Fairy, thanks for the feedback on my post
That's ADMIRAL ART FAIRY 
We must maintain proper respect for rank after all! 
Erik
That's ADMIRAL ART FAIRY
Oh dear... we're not going down this road again, are we?
Blacklancer99 wrote:That's ADMIRAL ART FAIRY
Oh dear... we're not going down this road again, are we?
This from the guy with ADMIRAL OF THE FLEET emlbazoned below his avatar 
You could order me to stop...but that would require an acknowledgement of rank! :twisted:
Ok, I guess it doesn't require greater rank to moderate me into oblivion, so I'll be good.
Erik
PS we return this thread to its previously scheduled discussion.
I see your point about vacuum zeps, although we're already making ether ships that are at least reasonably airtight in your setting. Without knowing just how lighter and stronger our 'unobtainium' substance Wasserstahl is I was just plucking at straws. Not possible to include pumps to cope with leakage?
It's not must a matter of being airtight, but being able to resist the pressure of the atmosphere. Imagine a balloon filled with air - now, take that balloon under water. Before you hit 40 feet in depth, that balloon will have compressed to a fairly small size. The balloon is made of rubber (or something similiar), a rigid material like steel (or our wasserstahl) cannot just squish, it implodes - quite explosively.
I've seen the vaccuum chambers at NASA, which - while large - are nowhere as large as something like a zeppelin. They're quite heavy - thick metal shells. Even if they were half as thick, I don't see them as being light enough to be used in a Zeppelin.
If we were able to make such a large vaccuum vessel, it would be armored like a battlecruiser to prevent implosion. Being a former submariner, I'm somewhat familiar with the technology involved.
A vaccuum pump might get the vaccuum, but the hull weight is the killer....
My favorite fantasy airships are the ones from 'Howl's moving Castle', Hybrid Lift Airframe Bomber types. There's a cool moment when one of the airships has it's engines disabled, instead of plummeting to the ground like a stricken plane it just starts losing altitude is a leasurely manner.
Yeah, if Dan's game for another supplement, I'm sure it will come up.
Sorry to use the L word, wasn't suggesting a rip from 'that other game', just the principle of biomimicry. It would be an awesome moment to discover some otherworldly element/organism similarly shielding itself from the effects of gravity.
I've got nothing against liftwood, I just don't see it working as advertised. If you've got something that can be grown, then the monopoly on it is VERY hard to maintain. It becomes TOO common, and looses it's ability to influence things in the game. What fun would D&D be if you actually DID have a wizard with a submachine gun? How about the entire party armed with them? It quickly becomes Gamma World, and we all know how long THAT lasted...
Oh, another thought regarding gases involved, I'm sure when I read up about the Graf and Hindenburg that the Germans wanted to put a hydrogen gas envelope INSIDE a helium gas envelope. That way you gain the improved lift of a greater volume of hydrogen but have it encased in a safety shield of helium.
But as fun as airships are in concept, (as mentioned before on this forum) for them to serve as more that carriers/observers you have to dip your toes in that fantasy pool.
What killed the airship concept in our world was two things:
- the public PERCEPTION of the Hydrogen hazrd
- relatively cheap fuel that enabled faster movement via airplanes
Hindenburg was a public relations disaster, but had aircraft been less capable, we'd still have them - or at least had them for a longer period of time. Hindenburg died because it was coated with what was effectively a layer of thermite, not because it was filled with hydrogen.
Is Helium safer? yes - but not by a huge margin. The economics and speed of the airplane killed airships in the long run though.
Blacklancer99 wrote:That's ADMIRAL ART FAIRY
Oh dear... we're not going down this road again, are we?
Yeah, apparently my family name has been subverted in favor of something more 'fun'...
What killed the airship concept in our world was two things:- the public PERCEPTION of the Hydrogen hazrd
- relatively cheap fuel that enabled faster movement via airplanes
Hindenburg was a public relations disaster, but had aircraft been less capable, we'd still have them - or at least had them for a longer period of time. Hindenburg died because it was coated with what was effectively a layer of thermite, not because it was filled with hydrogen.
Is Helium safer? yes - but not by a huge margin. The economics and speed of the airplane killed airships in the long run though.
Why do we use supertankers? Economies of scale. More efficient to move megatonnes of oil via a single enormous tanker than via a bunch of little ships.
Airship populists continue to say that the zepp could become the aerial version of the super tanker. Economically it sounds good. The Airship should be able to kill the plane economically. But it doesn't. Because lighter-than-air craft are very dangerous in bad weather. Which is the reason the US Navy did away with it's aerial fleet of airships. A plane can fly in worse weather. Thus extending it's utility to the point that airships are an afterthought for most aeronautically minded individuals. A cavorite powered craft is a much more likely winner of the race for the air. Cavorite in a plenum chamber with air intakes and exhaust nozzles for the air would provide lift and propulsion. And it would cost next to nothing. Because the "fuel" is the air we are surrounded with.
Why do we use supertankers? Economies of scale. More efficient to move megatonnes of oil via a single enormous tanker than via a bunch of little ships.
Airship populists continue to say that the zepp could become the aerial version of the super tanker. Economically it sounds good. The Airship should be able to kill the plane economically. But it doesn't. Because lighter-than-air craft are very dangerous in bad weather. Which is the reason the US Navy did away with it's aerial fleet of airships. A plane can fly in worse weather. Thus extending it's utility to the point that airships are an afterthought for most aeronautically minded individuals. A cavorite powered craft is a much more likely winner of the race for the air. Cavorite in a plenum chamber with air intakes and exhaust nozzles for the air would provide lift and propulsion. And it would cost next to nothing. Because the "fuel" is the air we are surrounded with.
Good point, and true.
Zeppelins and Blimps are notoriously unwieldy in a stiff breeze.
Cavorite used to generate power? I'll let Dan ponder that one.....
Having stood in the blimp hangers used by the USMC as a helo base back in '81, I can say that the hangers give you a sense of scale to the airships themselves...and were built exactly for the reasons of protection from the weather among several other things.
but the scale of the building...thinking of something that BIG blowing around loose...yeeps!!! (You can lay out two or three foot ball fields in one of the three hangers we were at.)
Yeeps! is right. The Navy had some pretty spectacular crashes due to weather. And to crash something that large does beggar the imagination.
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