• Registered: 2007-01-13
  • Posts: 33

Topic: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Howdy all,

Looking for opinions and advice. I'm familiar with MJ12's work from Starmada and I like that system a lot.

I'm looking into a good 28mm game for SF battles. The bulk of what I'm working with so far is Star Wars and this project started when I decided I liked WotC's Star Wars minis but wanted something more from the rules.

I have used No Limits, a free 28 mm generic system and I do enjoy it, but I'm always on the lookout for anything that might be better.

Basically, what I'm looking for is something that can handle Star Wars well...  That is to say, a certain amount of grit/realism is good, but overdoing it is definitely out of the question. In addition, it should be able to handle some of the fun stuff Jedi can do without making them over-powered and it should be able to handle vehicle scales from the lowly Speeder-bikes all the way up to the mighty AT-AT (though AT-ST sized is probably the most I'd see fielded without writing a scenario around it).

Any thoughts on how Defiance would fit this bill? I'm also curious for how it would compare with WEG's Star Wars Miniatures Battles and Wargames Unlimited's No Limits for those who have experience with either system.

Addendum: I've been able to play moderate sized battles with No Limits in about 2-3 hours with total newbies. Moderate = 3 or 4 squads of troops, along with several small to mid-sized vehicles per side. How does Defiance compare here?

I will also say that part of what attracts me is the prospect of a good way to generate profiles. Starmada's ship design template is an excellent tool and went a LONG way to making my Babylon 5 conversion much easier than it would have been otherwise. No Limits is a little trickier in this regard and if Defiance has something anywhere near as good as the one for Starmada, it'll make this decision much simpler.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

RedShark92 wrote:

Looking for opinions and advice. I'm familiar with MJ12's work from Starmada and I like that system a lot

Well, Defiance is not "Starmada The 28mm Ground Combat Edition"... But it is a good game for such games generally, I'd even say very good.

However, I'm not entirely sure if it is really well suited to Star Wars. For one, it's pretty "realistic" as games go and Star Wars is anything but realistic. For another, the Jedi in particular may be difficult to portray, depending a little on how powerful and how "wacky" you want them. All sorts of little tweaks can tilt the balance in their favour, but still they won't necessarily get far enough over the top or be flashy enough. The rest of the troops should be doable quite nicely, even the vehicles although that really depends how many different types of vehicles per force you see yourself needing -- this number is severely curtailed under the standard rules.

Having said the above, I must point out that in the full rules there is a genre option "Operatic" that allows you to literally field "superheroes" by modifiying some of the basic parameters of the game. That would probably help accomplishing the Star Wars feel but I must say I've never played around with that particular option.

Addendum: I've been able to play moderate sized battles with No Limits in about 2-3 hours with total newbies. Moderate = 3 or 4 squads of troops, along with several small to mid-sized vehicles per side. How does Defiance compare here?

Defiance generally plays faster than than No Limits.

No Limits is a little trickier in this regard and if Defiance has something anywhere near as good as the one for Starmada, it'll make this decision much simpler.

I'm not familiar with what they've been doing with Starmada fleet generation in the last ten or so years, but I should think Defiance force creation tool is much more complex. It is certainly more complex than that of No Limits. Of course IMCO it also gives clearly better results when it comes to game balance, but you'll need to work a bit to get those results.

  • Registered: 2007-01-13
  • Posts: 33

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Thanks for the info! I have a few comments...

tnjrp wrote:
RedShark92 wrote:

Looking for opinions and advice. I'm familiar with MJ12's work from Starmada and I like that system a lot

Well, Defiance is not "Starmada The 28mm Ground Combat Edition"... But it is a good game for such games generally, I'd even say very good.

Well I wasn't expecting them to be identical, they're simulating completely different things - just saying I've been happy with my experiences with MJ12 so far. smile

However, I'm not entirely sure if it is really well suited to Star Wars. For one, it's pretty "realistic" as games go and Star Wars is anything but realistic. For another, the Jedi in particular may be difficult to portray, depending a little on how powerful and how "wacky" you want them.

I'm not sure this is a problem for me, for a few reasons, as long as it's not excessively gritty/realistic. Is it more or less gritty/realistic than Stargrunt?

The feel of WEG's SWMB is perfect, in this regard, my main issue with this system is that there's enough new elements in the PT era that it'd be simpler to come up with stats in a system that allows for force creation.

In addition, I'm definitely into toning down the Jedi. I want them to be powerful in close combat and difficult to hit at range, but I don't want them to be pulling anywhere near the level of stunts we saw in the Clone Wars cartoon (for instance). For what it's worth, No Limits has this problem as well.

I'd like to have and be able to field Jedi, but I don't want them dominating the field. I want battles that are primarily about the troopers. I may be compromising some of the more heroic aspects of the Star Wars feel with this, but I'm fine with that, and like I said, we have a precedence for this with the original miniatures rules for Star Wars.

All sorts of little tweaks can tilt the balance in their favour, but still they won't necessarily get far enough over the top or be flashy enough. The rest of the troops should be doable quite nicely, even the vehicles although that really depends how many different types of vehicles per force you see yourself needing -- this number is severely curtailed under the standard rules.

I'm envisioning forces composed primarily of squads of troops. A typical army might be 4-8 squads of troops (the exact number depending on size and quality), maybe a "hero" level character or two (probably leading a squad) and no more than 2-3 small vehicles (speeder bike/landspeeder level) and no more than 2-3 mid-sized vehicles (AT-ST, Tank Droid, etc.). Large vehicles (AT-AT scale) would be reserved for special scenarios.

I'm not familiar with what they've been doing with Starmada fleet generation in the last ten or so years, but I should think Defiance force creation tool is much more complex. It is certainly more complex than that of No Limits. Of course IMCO it also gives clearly better results when it comes to game balance, but you'll need to work a bit to get those results.

This is one of the issues I'm having with No Limits. Force generation for Troops in No Limits is great. Vehicles don't seem to be as well developed and both the rules and the point balances for them feel "loose" to me. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it does have me looking at other options.

With Starmada - there's a very well designed Excel sheet - you simply plug in the numbers and other info into it and it does all of the necessary game calculations on the fly. There are some similar tools for No Limits, but I'm doing most of the work for it by hand as they're all a little clunky. I was wondering if the tool for Defiance is similar.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 65

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

RedShark92 wrote:

Howdy all,

Looking for opinions and advice. I'm familiar with MJ12's work from Starmada and I like that system a lot.

I'm looking into a good 28mm game for SF battles. The bulk of what I'm working with so far is Star Wars and this project started when I decided I liked WotC's Star Wars minis but wanted something more from the rules.

Hey guys...don't mind me, I'm just doing a quick drive-by advertisement...

RedShark, if you are looking for 28mm battles, then Defiance can be there for you.  As a fellow Star Wars fan, if you ever want to do large-scale battles with vehicles and what not in the Star Wars universe, it might be worth your while to have a look at Assault Corps.  Another fine game in development by your friends at MJ12.   It will be ready for sale...some day.  In the meantime you could join the play tester cadre at  http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/assaultcorpswarriors/

There is a playtest package, and a whole whack of pre-generated Star Wars elements from pre-clone wars up to ROTJ.  It's hellafun.

Seeya!

squeeling tires

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Redshark: from what I hear, Defiance is a bit less unremittingly realistic than Stargrunt. You can certainly make very formidable individuals, but to really tool them up you'll need to make a separate "frame" (or stat block) for them, which will limit -severely- your ability to put them in squads with regular footsoldiers. Also, while they will be formidable, they will also die very fast under the wrong circumstances.

Your squad number/ vehicle perameters sound perfect for Defiance, but Defiance mostly only allows for 1 fast vehicle, 1 APC, 1 "tank", an agile mech and a stampy mech per army. This is somewhat flexible, within limits.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

RedShark92 wrote:

I'm not sure this is a problem for me, for a few reasons, as long as it's not excessively gritty/realistic. Is it more or less gritty/realistic than Stargrunt?

Can't say really as I'm not very familiar with Stargrunt. Defiance's "realism" is more about outcomes of your "combat decisions" than about troops themselves. Like you can expect your hardest infantry to be cut down if they rush accross a wide swathe of open ground against a machine gun nest. That sort of thing.

I'm definitely into toning down the Jedi. I want them to be powerful in close combat and difficult to hit at range

That should work, although getting the CC stat high enough may require a bit of balancing act (meaning you may need to make the regular troops pretty sucky in that regard) under the regular rules.

With Starmada - there's a very well designed Excel sheet - you simply plug in the numbers and other info into it and it does all of the necessary game calculations on the fly. There are some similar tools for No Limits, but I'm doing most of the work for it by hand as they're all a little clunky. I was wondering if the tool for Defiance is similar.

There is no working support tool for Defiance AFAIK, I'm afraid. Only some partial preliminary versions that don't work too well.

  • Registered: 2007-01-13
  • Posts: 33

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Well, thanks for the tips.

I think I'll be sticking with No Limits for now. It sounds like it's slightly superior for what I'm trying to do and I've already put a fair amount of work into it...   Defiance definitely has a fair amount going for it, but doesn't fit this project well enough for me to throw away the work I've already done on it.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 261

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Hi Redshark,

I'm not that familiar with No Limits, but Defiance has a very well-developed and balanced vehicle creation system, working under the assumption that vehicles will be a smaller part of a typical force than squads (1-3 vehicles and 4-6 squads being the typical size for a 2 hour game).

  • Registered: 2007-01-13
  • Posts: 33

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

It sounds like Defiance probably would handle vehicles a little better than No Limits does, OTOH based on the comments I've seen here I think No Limits integrates Jedi (and other "lesser" Hero-class models) into squad based battles more effectively.

I did download the demo version so I will be thumbing through it, at least.
Will check in if I have questions.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 480

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

Defiance can do it, but does it do it the way you like it?

Be sure to ask any questions that come to mind!

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 101

Re: Defiance vs. No Limits for Star Wars

If Defiance doesn't, take a look at Ares. lol