Topic: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Hi folks, just for fun i thought it might be interesting to talk out provisional ideas for the Starmada: Star Fleet Universe game that might one day occur!

My thoughts have been along the line of "get the Klingon D7, Federation CA, and Romulan War Eagle right, then build out the fleets from there."

For instance, here was my initial Stab at a Federation Heavy Cruiser:

(272) Constitution-class Federation Heavy Cruiser

Hull: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Screens: 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Weapons:
1:XY 2:XY 3:XZ 4:YZ 5:Y 6:Y

X: Photon Torpedoes: 4/8/12, 1/3+/1/5
Slow-Firing
[AB][AB][AB][AB]

Y: Phaser I: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCD][ABCD][AC][AC][BD][BD][CDEF][CDEF]

Z: Phaser III: 2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCDEF][ABCDEF]

Special: Hyperdrive; Science (8); Teleporters (4); Marines (20); Cargo (9)


I made all Phasers use "Range based ROF" to simulate the degradation of damage by Range that Phasers have. 

For Photons, I made them slow-firing, with low Impact but High Damage.

I made Labs=Science in a 1 for 1 trade and played with the Transporters and Marines to simulate the capabilities of a Heavy Cruiser. The Cargo was added because it soaks up the odd points and it always seems the feds are hauling around medicine to colonies experiencing some plague or other (lol)

What do YOU think?

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Here's a stab at a D7:

(366) Klolode-class Klingon Battlecruiser

Hull: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Screens: 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1             
Weapons:
1:XZ 2:XZ 3:XZ 4:Y 5:Y 6:Z

X: Disruptors: 5/10/15, 1/3+/2/2
[AB][AB][AB][AB]

Y: Phaser I: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCD][ABCD][ABCD]

Z: Phaser II: 3/6/9, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[CE][CE][DF][DF][AC][BD]

Special: Hyperdrive; Science (4); Teleporters (4); Marines (22); Carrier (100); Anti-Fighter Batteries (2); Cargo (7)

I use Carrier to simulate a Drone Load and Anti-Fighter batteries for Anti-Drone Defense. A few more marines and less Science than the Federation CA. Screens are less effective but it carries more weapons.

We might need to have a rule limiting Drone (Striker)Rates of fire as well as making a flight= 1 Drone.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Romulan King Eagle:

Here is where it falls apart a bit. As I see it, the Plasma Torpedoes can either be Direct Fire weapons with extreme damage and Range issues (Trying to simulate the "Damage Curve" of a Plasma) or as Strikers (Which would imply limited ammunition but force us to introduce Striker launch rates.

I chose to use the Former. In addition, I was forced to drop the Phaser III rear armament. This makes the King Eagle terrifying from the front, but extremely vulnerable from the rear.

(246) King Eagle-class Romulan Cruiser

Hull: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 1 1             
Screens: 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 1 1             
Weapons:
1:X 2:Y 3:Y 4:Z 5:Z 6:Z

X: Plasma-R: 6/12/18, 1/2+/2/5
Range-Based DMG; Slow-Firing; Doubled Range Mods
[AB]

Y: Plasma-F: 6/12/18, 1/2+/1/3
Range-Based DMG; Slow-Firing; Doubled Range Mods
[AB][AB]

Z: Phaser I: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABC][ABC][ABD][ABD]

Special: Hyperdrive; Science (2); Teleporters; Marines (10); Cloaking Device; Cargo

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

I'm not really happy with the Klingon D7. It rates WAY too powerful compared to the Federation CA.. I will monkey around with it to try to get it into a Hull-10. That will require losing weapons sad

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Here's a Hull-10 version of the D7

(280) D7 Klolode -class Klingon Battlecruiser

Hull: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Screens: 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 1 1             
Weapons:
1:XZ 2:XZ 3:XZ 4:Y 5:Y 6:Z

X: Disruptors: 5/10/15, 1/3+/2/1
Range-Based DMG
[AB][AB][AB][AB]

Y: Phaser I: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCD][ABCD]

Z: Phaser II: 3/6/9, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[AC][BD][CE][CE][DF][DF]

Special: Hyperdrive; Science (4); Teleporters (3); Marines (20); Carrier (25); Anti-Fighter Batteries (4); Cargo (3)


All-in all not a bad compromise. Lost a significant carrier load, allows it to carry just a couple Single Striker flights.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Do you really mean to be using screens? If so, then 4 or 5 would seem a small number for a heavy cruiser...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Agh that's right, forgot to uncheck that box! I was going to address Screens on secondary passes.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

LOL dang I might as well kill this thread and start over (This fits in with my morning, sadly)

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Let's try again:

Federation Heavy Cruiser Using Screens:

(251) Constitution-class Federation Heavy Cruiser

Hull: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Screens: 10 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Weapons:
1:XY 2:XZ 3:XZ 4:Y 5:Y 6:Y

X: Photon Torpedoes: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/5
Slow-Firing
[AB][AB][AB][AB]

Y: Phaser I: 5/10/15, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCD][ABCD][AC][BD][CDEF][CDEF]

Z: Phaser III: 2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[ABCDEF][ABCDEF]

Special: Hyperdrive; Science (6); Teleporters (2); Marines (5); Cargo


Am using Screens correctly this time intentionally. I think it forces a more tactical decision making. I'm not sure 10 is enough for a Federation Heavy Cruiser. I would prefer 15-16, but I would have to sacrifice weapons to do it.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Thoughts as a one time SFB grognard, here are my reactions

I'd consider decreasing photons accuracy to 4+  They were always a bit of a crap shoot, especially at long range, big bang or zip.

Phaser I should not only have range, but a bit more punch than the Phaser III.  I'd suggest 2 impact dice, which would preserve the smooth range of damage of the phaser.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Phaser 1s were the longest ranged weapon after Phaser 4s.  IMO, Phaser 4s would go out to 30, and Phaser 1s should go out to 18 at least (I'd go to 24, in SFB they went out to 75!).  Also, I'd changed Phasers to do Ranged-based Damage, not Ranged-based ROF.  They should also have the anti-fighter trait as they were one of the few weapons that didn't take a negative modifier to hit drones and fighters.

I doubt that 1 LAB = 1 Science.  More like 1 LAB = 10 to 20 Science.  I'm guessing at what a SU represents for those things*, but taking a standard flight of fighters (6) taking up 50 space, 50/6 ~= 9 per fighter.  So allowing for science equipment and space for the scientists, a "LAB" might take up a little more space than a fighter.

Same goes for Cargo.  I recall hearing about 3 different cargo rooms on the Enterprise from the TOS.  Increase the hull size by 1 without adding any weapons or defenses would allow for more spacious accommodations (and where's the room for the bowling alley?).




*Do the books cover that?   My store partner keeps forgetting to order the books from MJ12.    :x

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

I actually thing ranged based ROF is better than ranged based damage for phasers, because a phaser shot nearly always guaranteed you SOME damage over a curve, rather than single all or nothing big hit.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

hmm A klingon D7 has something like 90 internals in Federation Commander, 4 or which are Lab boxes.

I don't know if that number is high or low, as science in Starmada is abstract.

As previously posted I think I like Range based rate-of fire more than Range-based Damage. if you look on the hit chart Phaser Is do 50% more damage at point blank than Phaser IIs (Max damage 9 on Phaser I and 6 on Phaser II)
Phaser I goes out to 25 hexes in Fed Commander and Phaser II goes out to 25 as well

In fact, looking at the bands they are Almost identical at 9-25 range (The Phaser I does a little more damage with the same hit odds). The only place the Phaser I is dramatically better is n the 5 or less range, where it easily overpowers Phaser II. Maybe Phaser I and II have same range and Range-based ROF but Phaser I has the "Increased Hits" trait as well?

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Okay, how about we split the difference and go with Range-based IMP?  Something about Range-based ROF doesn't sit well with me (cost is the same for any of the 3).  Couple other things about the current design: no shuttlecraft, Phaser 1 arcs are too large, and the original CA did not have Phaser IIIs.  So here is my take on the design, I upped the TL of weapons to max (+2).

---------------------------------------------------------
(361) Constitution-class Federation CA

Hull: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1             
Engines: 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1             
Shields: 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1             
Weapons:
1:XY 2:X 3:X 4:Y 5:Y 6:Y

X: Photon Torpedo: 4/8/12, 1/4+/1/4
Slow-Firing
[AB][AB][AB][AB]

Y: Phaser I: 6/12/18, 1/3+/1/1
Anti-Fighter; Range-Based IMP
[ACE][ACE][GHI][GHI][BDF][BDF]

Special: Hyperdrive; Marines (12); Teleporters (4); Carrier (26); Science (80); Cargo (83)  Note: Carrier space is for 1 flight of 4 "fighters", Speed-5, Acc 5+, defense 0.
---------------------------------------------------------

I think all weapons need to be designed first, so then you can get them to compare to each other; THEN put them on ships.

And a decision has to be made to use Shields or Screens. 
1) Shields are faster (no plotting involved), and I think more representative with allowing the optional boost shield rule (whatever its called); perhaps rule it that the front shield is always the one boosted by default, you have to plot it if you want it differently. 
2) I have an issue with screens, especially with SFB where a ship has shielding in every direction (until taken down by damage) so either you have to force people to plot screens in every direction with some given ratio (e.g., a screen's strength cannot be more than double of the screen on the other side of the ship.. yeah, the Klingons cheat with that rule smile ) or you're not simulating SFB shielding.  Now screens would allow for shield reinforcing, so that's something to think about (hmm, so I might like it better than I thought at first  :? ).

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Fed Commander?  That wanna-be SFB game?  Pfft.  Give me the real SFB, where real men are Klingons and women are Orion slave girls.   big_smile

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

I'm actually going by the newer Federation Commander rather than the older Star Fleet Battles, and those numbers and arcs almost exactly match the newer SSDs.

Range based impact.hmmm.. I might bite on that. lemme re-read.

As far as shuttlecraft i was intentionally leaving them out as a test. I assume this will be a faster-playing game and was thinking of reserving "Fighters' for "Real Fighters" as opposed to everyone and his uncle having to commit hull space to Carrier.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

You know, i have both games, Glen and the difference isn't as much as you would think. I started playing SFB with the original Pocket Edition in '80 and played continuously until '95 or '96.

The major deal is they have consolidated stuff so I don't have to screw around with "Positron Flywheels" (lol) and "Ubitron Interface Modules" or the Kaufman Retrograde or "Narrow-salvo-proximity-fused Photon Torpedoes".

All that stuff is fine when you have 4 ships or less playing and you have 5 hours to spare, but stripping that down and not having to fill out turn-by turn energy allocation forms is brilliant. Your energy allocation takes place as you use it and you slide the paperclip down the laminated SSD to the new number.

And I can play 4 times more often now!

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

hey, what do you think of having Photons hit on 3+ BUT also have Doubled Range modifiers?

In SFB/Fed Commander At point blank Photons hit 100% at range 1-2 and 83% at range 3-4 then drop off really fast (let's not talk about Overloaded Photons or Splash damage from point blank shots).

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Doubled Range mods are not a bad idea, but I still think the base accuracy should be 4+.  If you went with DR, then it'd be 2+ at close (as good as you can do in Starmada), 4+ at medium, and 6+ hail mary at long.

Long range photons were always a gamble, thus the much loved narrow salvo proxy fused volley wink

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Doh thinking cap on. Of course you are right. I agree 4+

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Ok, how about this for Photons:

Range: 15 IMP:1 and DMG: 5
Slow Loading, Doubled Range Modifiers

I like the IMP to be 1 to preserve the feel of each die being a single Photon with a set amount of Damage (in SFB Non-overloaded Photons ALWAYS do 8 points of damage regardless of range.)

This way it also preserves the need for the Feds to close the distance every other turn to deliver the deadly cargo of Antimatter.

On Screens vs,. Shields, the reason i am leaning toward screens is purely flavor.

In Star Fleet Battles Shields are critically important and when you lose a shield you maneuver to protect it while the enemy maneuvers to exploit it.

By using Screens we force players to maneuver tactically and attempt to exploit direction.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Yeah, Photons at 4+ Acc is good with the DR.

Glad they cut down on the fluff from SFB, then.  I'd prefer to play with the basic rules but you couldn't get anyone else to do so since they all wanted all the fluff/rules that was available.  So I haven't played or even looked at SFB in years (not since the 6 hour marathon to run through 3 turns).

But, I think all this discussion is moot as TPTB* are probably already figuring all this out, or already have, and they cannot say anything.




*The Powers That Be

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

I don't think it's Moot at all. we might see something they don't, or we might have an idea that sparks something. plus it's FUN. (lol)

I agree with you about the good old basic SFB, which is why I was pleasantly surprised with Federation Commander:Klingon Border. You get Cruisers, Frigates and a Dread each for Fed and Klingon, plus a couple ships from other races to whet your appetite. they carved out all the junk that slowed it down and kept what was good: Maneuver, Power, and proportional movement.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Only Warlock wrote:

On Screens vs,. Shields, the reason i am leaning toward screens is purely flavor.

In Star Fleet Battles Shields are critically important and when you lose a shield you maneuver to protect it while the enemy maneuvers to exploit it.

By using Screens we force players to maneuver tactically and attempt to exploit direction.

Doesn't matter since you can reallocate screen strength in any direction in Starmada. 

Unless you want to force screen allocation at ship design, which changes the SSD (now you have 6 Shield/Screen tracks), you won't be able to simulate SFB shielding very well.  With Shields and the boost front shield option (so the back 3 shields are at -1 strength, I think it's about the closest you can come to shield layouts on SFB's SSDs.  You still won't be able to destroy a shield from one side, but you can lessen the values all around and the rear shields remain the weaker ones.  It also saves on plotting time since you won't have to plot screen strengths on 6 possible sides.

Re: Brainstorming: Federation Commander: Admiralty Edition

Oh I admit it's different, but you still have to allocate the screens, forcing you to decide how to Maneuver.

Also allowing tactics like splitting your ships to attack against two sides in order to force a player to weaken his overall shield allocation to protect two directions.

Right now with Shields there is really only Range and fire arc as a constraint. In SFB one of the biggest reasons to maneuver was Shields.