Topic: Basin Feedback Thread

Just seemed to me that we often post ships in the 'Basin, but rarely discuss the fleet design philosophies/thought process behind them.  As the Basin is properly limited to posting the ships, I though I'd throw out a thread to discuss the various navies posted there.

...As I wont have the gelt to pick up a copy of the newest rules until this afternoon, I for my own part wont be commenting until sometime after then.   smile

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Excellent idea! 8)

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

I like it.

Nahuris

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

thing is, I didn't want the basin to be the place where Mike babbles about star trek and I get on my soap box about the "current state of gaming"

but I think it's a great idea to talk about the "design philosophies" of the ships

It could be done in the background blurb, which I encourage...

btw, I have used the Bourbaki Basin designs in actual games also.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Jimbeau, I understand completely!  No criticism, overt or covert, was intended.

Thing is, this CAN be the place for that.. also reviews of Basin ships by other players... give everyone a chance to weigh in with their 'what we thing of this and that' sort of stuff.

Im in the process of converting a fairly large and fluffed-out SMX navy into Admiralty.. once I'm done, I'll have it up, with attendant fluff, etc.


And, suiting action to words, my review/response/unsolicited commentary on the Eurasian Empire:

Overall impression:  Solid, suited to multiple tasks.  I like the nearly uniform fleet speed from a tactical level, as it allows the fleet to function together fairly smoothly (with the exception of the Jian-A, discussed below).  Ditto the consistent shielding levels, as it complicates enemy fire control. (I will tend to shoot less shielded ships first, in any mixed fleet.. the moreso because they tend to also be smaller, faster, and more dangerous in close).

Fleet feels nicely rough, low tech, but elegant within its tech base.  Very Russian.

I also note that you -seem- to be using Frigate in the U.S.S. Constitution sense of the word, rather than the 'smallest ship in the navy, pure escort' modern sense.

Specific Ship Reviews:
Shang-A
Nasty, tough little bugger.  4 shields and 6 hull, for its point value, is rough.  And I dont want to get within range 12 of it... a 50% chance to make 4 impact rolls for 4 damage each as soon as you hit range 12, for 140 points?  Of course, its median damage against itself is only going to be 2.33 at range 12 (.5 hits x (4 impacts at 1/3 each)x4 damage.. but the potential of 16 damage will command respect.

Particle Turrets are obviously anti-fighter weapons, intended to be used at close ranges... (given the 5+)  I rather like the use of scads-o-guns here, as it helps generate that hail of fire feeling.  Also note the low accuracy.

Shang-B:  Im not sure a extra hull point and an extra impact die are worth cutting that 120* field of fire to 60*  I can see the Shang-B in a fire support role, but range 12 is a little short for a pure fire support vessel, and trying to keep a 60* weapon in arc as you get into knife fighting would be tough.  That said, not all ships are pefect, and no navy consists entirely of perfect ships.

Jian-A:  Apparently a refitted Shang-A hull with uprated drives, at the cost of the fleet-battle weapons.  Nasty little knife fighter, but I'm having trouble figuring out its role.  Maybe something like the original 'Torpedo Boat Destroyer', meant to run down and kill off strike boats?  Produces an utter hail of bullets in most directions, but has some serious accuracy issues... beware of foes that mount ECM or go erratic.
Even so, feels higher tech than the rest of the navy.. probably the wide arc weapons.  Newer design?

Kirov:  "Battlecruiser Reporting".   The naming of this a 'Battlecruiser' suggest that there are 5 shield, 3 engine 'Battleships' with similar armament.. but I'm uncertain how the navy uses 'Battlecruiser'  (discussion of the 'Battlecruiser' term, its use, misuse, and misconceptions about the original (flawed, but no so badly as history would tell) concept.. would fill its own thread).  Taken as itself, I like that its as fast as your frigates... indeed, it mostly feels like a frigate writ large, or the bastard child of a Jian-A and Shang-A, given the anti-torpedo-boat Railguns, the anti-fighter Particle Batteries, and the 'please dont point that at my ship' Heavy Anti-Ship Torpedo (which, oddly enough, does less damage over time than the Particle Lance, despite its much, much greater range.. accuracy issues).
Well designed, especially inasmuch as the railguns take over once you get under the minimum range of the torpedos.  With 16 dice at 4+, noone will ever want to be close to you...  and your fast enough to catch them.  Again, I'm a bit concerned about ECM and Evasive Action, but you would be able to close up an Evasive foe pretty quickly, and a total of 48 to-hit+impact dice, even at target 5, is fairly terrifying.

Nanuchka:  Strike boat, I assume, given its stealth?  Yould not want them to roll up in the line with the Frigates, as any foe that could kill these things would.  Their heavily armed for their resilience, so theyll be targeted fast.  That said, I can see the fleet role, just not the fleet battle role (again, due to stealth)

Construction of Fleet:  If those are (as I assume they are) custom jobs, or even kit-bashes, I loathe you with the burning of a thousand suns.  Beautiful ships.

Overall Impressions:  Not alot of ship classes, but that seems to fit the relatively early space war/full thrust tech level feel of the navy.  Interesting designs, with both strengths and weaknesses.  Common speed should allow them to operate together well in battle, but I'm curious how the armament fit will work out.  Should be relatively straightforward though, tactically.. given the long range narrow arc weaponry, point nose at foe and close, firing all the way...

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

jimbeau wrote:

thing is, I didn't want the basin to be the place where Mike babbles about star trek and I get on my soap box about the "current state of gaming"

Just for the record, I'm NOT a trekkie....

I am somewhat pedantic, but I'm NOT a trekkie.

I don't own ANY rubber ears....I don't own any Federation Uniforms, and I never speak Klingon....

..just for the record.
smile

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Marcus Smythe,

Love the review of the fleet.... nicely done, and this would be a great addition to the forums....especially if we manage either counters or figs for these ships. We could then trade back and forth with our ideas

Jian-A: Apparently a refitted Shang-A hull with uprated drives, at the cost of the fleet-battle weapons. Nasty little knife fighter, but I'm having trouble figuring out its role. Maybe something like the original 'Torpedo Boat Destroyer', meant to run down and kill off strike boats? Produces an utter hail of bullets in most directions, but has some serious accuracy issues... beware of foes that mount ECM or go erratic.
Even so, feels higher tech than the rest of the navy.. probably the wide arc weapons. Newer design?


How about using 2 or so of these to hunt damaged ships that drop out of a battle formation? Also, with the wider arc fire weapons, I can see them adding their support to other ships as needed, or even flying between two friendlies, and helping to defend against enemies that close..... Definitely a ship designed to work within a formation, rather than a bunch of stand alone ships massed together.....

Nahuris

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

I love that review, it's good to see how a fleet, well-put together, can also have a "flavor" and NOT need to have every ship be perfectly design to destroy the enemy.

(I'm off the soapbox now)

at any rate, I think there is a place for discussion like this, I'm not sure it has it's own forum, but I think this a very good example of a good review.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Wow thanks that was a great review! And you called it in every respect, too.

The Nanuchkas are little convoy raiders. they lurk in dust shoals and creep into the convoy lanes to ambush the fleet train or the unwary merchants. In Fleet engagements they hang back until everyone is worried about the bigger boys and then creep forward to fire and run.

The Beam frigates in my setting are actually refitted Orbital Beam weapons that were too vulnerable to attack. When the First wave of satellites were swept from the skies by Republic Orbital Fighter squadrons, the PAE had nearly 30 of the Beam arrays built for satellite deployment. Rather than let them go to waste they constructed an armored hull around them and commissioned them as fire support Frigates. The Shang-B was an attempt to overcome the cool-down issues of the Shang-A's main gun. The extra mass is primarily taken up by more Heat Sinks and Liquid Nitrogen tanks.

All of these are scratchbuilt models and are set in my "Legacy of the Homdur" universe (If I ever get the books finished, lol) They were originally constructed as a design exercise to work out the feel of the forces graphically. I have about 10 more classes that I don't have pics up for yet as well.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Here are some other pics of the scratch fleets in progress:

http://doodlebot.net/redoubt/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/base_2.jpg
http://doodlebot.net/redoubt/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/dsc01749.JPG
http://doodlebot.net/redoubt/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/dsc01752.JPG
http://doodlebot.net/redoubt/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dsc01642.JPG
http://doodlebot.net/redoubt/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dsc01645.JPG

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Thousands of Suns... burning.   big_smile

Georgeous pictures, Warlock.

I think, if I find spare time/CPU cycles, I may try to 'review' a few more navies.. either Basin ones, or ones from the setting material.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Hello everyone. 

I am courious about the types of weapons people put on their ships. 
My battleships have their heaviest weapons fire out to 30 Hx.  The secondaries fire only out to 20.  They all have piercing and are 1/1/2or3 for the heavies, and 1/1/1 for the secondaries.  The secondaries are also the ship's AA weapons.  This guarentees at least one shot at drones or fighters b4 they can hit. 

All my ships also have screens, and armor plating.  The capital ships, hull size 18 to 20,  have speed 6, the cruisers & Destroyers which carry strikers go 8 and the FastAttackCraft go 12. 
All of these ships have been successful so far... 8)
However, I am always open to new ideas.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Id be curious to see your often-discussed fleet up in the 'Basin, Beowulf.  The massive range on your firepower, coupled with large hulls and armor plating must make them... pricey, to say the least.

My anticipation is that having that many points tied up in singular (however tough) hulls would tend to create either a really overwhelmingly good force, or a very vulnerable one.  I also recommend avoiding the damage control rules with ships that big, as they turn into shambling, unkillable zombies.  Damage Control and Regen really 'balance' best on smaller ships, IMHO.

Then again, were all engineers here.  After paying appropriate lip service to balance and flavor, the temptation to run the numbers and make all the best decisions is.. often overwhelming.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Personally, I *LIKE* shambling, unkillable Zombies....

That being said, I understand where you're coming from. It's not fun to play against an opponent that's got an unbeatable fleet. In real life, there's always an 'Achilles heel' of some sort.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

thedugan wrote:

Personally, I *LIKE* shambling, unkillable Zombies....

That being said, I understand where you're coming from. It's not fun to play against an opponent that's got an unbeatable fleet. In real life, there's always an 'Achilles heel' of some sort.

There is?  So what's the Achilles heel of the Iowa class BB?

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

GamingGlen wrote:
thedugan wrote:

Personally, I *LIKE* shambling, unkillable Zombies....

That being said, I understand where you're coming from. It's not fun to play against an opponent that's got an unbeatable fleet. In real life, there's always an 'Achilles heel' of some sort.

There is?  So what's the Achilles heel of the Iowa class BB?

Don't know. I haven't payed attention THAT closely....
smile

Give me a link, post it, and I'll think on it some....
smile


Oh, and If you're talking real life, I'd say hit it with fast cruisers or destroyers away from fighter escort - use torpedoes. Either that, or an atomic bomb...
smile

Time to go to work now....
;/

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

As for the Iowa..

Taken within her context, (IE, not comparing her to warships of a half-century or more later, but only to ships of her era) she has a couple of 'Achilles Heels'.  First and foremost, shes not at all equipped to defend herself against torpedo attack, either from a submarine or from a squadron of torpedo boats.  This isn't really fair of me, though, because battleships of that era DIDNT defend themselves from those things.. it wasn't their job.

Also, for her -displacement-, she wasn't all that well armed and armored.  Iowa was really quite large compared to most of her predecessors, while carrying not-particularly more firepower or armor.. because she was rather alot faster than her predecessors.  This speed, while strategically wonderful (and allowing her to serve as a much needed escort for the fast carriers!) means that, in starmada terms, she was under gunned for her cost.  The real world isnt points balanced, however, and sometimes its well worth a disparate $ expenditure to buy a capability that can be gotten no other way.

In terms of achilles heels of the aforediscussed Starmada fleet?  Id have to see it on paper.  Given the use of screens and range 30+ hyper-accurate guns, my initial thought is a very, very fast knife-fight style fleet might be the way to go.  Another thought, given the huge point values (and thus limited targets) that the fleet represents... answer them with the 'glittering creschendo of doom'... massive, long range, one-shot firepower.  Not all that great against a 'normal' fleet, because youve so many targets that your going to overkill some and get wasted by the survivors, having shot most of your CR downrange as soon as you hit range 30... but if your only up against 1-2 ships, then you can much more easily get away with it. 

Another option, against any fleet that relys on screens, is fighters.  Fightesr will make screened ships hate life.   Ditto, argueably, AOE weapons.  If LoS is only counted for AOE weapons from the firing ship to the target hex, then LOS for purposes of which shield is hit OUGHT to count from the target hex to the impacted ship.. meaning that the firing vessel could, as a practical matter 'call the shield' hit.  Sure, AOE is expensive, but so is trying to shoot through lvl 5 screens.

Whatever you do, don't try to slug it out at range with them.  The ships, as hes described them, are -utterly- optimized for line-of-battle engagements at max range.  Screens, R30 2+ guns, Armor plating coupled with massive hulls and (one assumes) Damage Control rules to keep fixing anything that DOES break... its an attrition war you wont win.

That said, they'll probably curbstomp anything not at least moderately 'beardy', and may well require a one-off fleet to beat.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Another option, against any fleet that relys on screens, is fighters.  Fightesr will make screened ships hate life.

The trick is getting them within range.  His range 20 weapon is actually a range 30 weapon with Cannonade, and have ROF-3.  Two of them wipe out a flight, or nearly so, long before the fighters can get within range. 

Now, I did a trick with X version before we switched to Admiralty: 1 hull carrier with nothing but 1 fighter flight and speed 19.  On the turn that I thought I could get within a few inches of his fleet (2nd or 3rd turn), I doubled the speed of those things and the survivors, which were many, launched all their fighter flights (then checked for hull damage).  Took him quite by surprise.    :twisted:    My only battlewagon (an "Italian" version of the same style) + cruiser mopped up what was left of the wreckage.  big_smile

Btw, I discovered in our last battle that a big gun (a "spinal mount", IMP 3-5, DMG 5, double damage, piercing) is the way to go against his ships.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Marcus Smythe wrote:

As for the Iowa..

Taken within her context, (IE, not comparing her to warships of a half-century or more later, but only to ships of her era) she has a couple of 'Achilles Heels'.  First and foremost, shes not at all equipped to defend herself against torpedo attack, either from a submarine or from a squadron of torpedo boats.  This isn't really fair of me, though, because battleships of that era DIDNT defend themselves from those things.. it wasn't their job.

Also, for her -displacement-, she wasn't all that well armed and armored.  Iowa was really quite large compared to most of her predecessors, while carrying not-particularly more firepower or armor.. because she was rather alot faster than her predecessors.  This speed, while strategically wonderful (and allowing her to serve as a much needed escort for the fast carriers!) means that, in starmada terms, she was under gunned for her cost.  The real world isnt points balanced, however, and sometimes its well worth a disparate $ expenditure to buy a capability that can be gotten no other way.

I picked the Iowa, but it could be the Bismarck, North Carolina class, King George V class, or Yamato.  These were pretty much the best of the BB type of ship.

Torpedo boats operated by ambushing their targets.  To do that in space you have to use "terrain", which is something we don't do often (but should do a little more than we have).  There is also a fog of war aspect missing in table top games, unless you have a referee and set up the playing area accordingly (two different maps that only the referee sees); and some decent sensor rules, which Starmada severely lacks.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Oh, what is this 'basin thing, anyway?

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

As in 'Bourbaki Basin', a forum wherein ship designs are posted....  its near the bottom of the MJ12 Forums Page.

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

GamingGlen wrote:

Oh, what is this 'basin thing, anyway?

http://mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548

smile

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

Yeah - like I said - torpedoes....
smile

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

My BBs range in cost from the 18 hull USS Texas BPV=947 to the 20 hull USS Pennsylvania BPV=1125.  They are escorted by DDGs, which carry speed 15 strikers that hit on 3+, have ROF=3, and piercing.  These cantarget fighters or any arracking "torpedo boats".  They are very effective... 8)

In a game at a convention, I played some of my ships against ships that were  similiar to the ISS book ships.  Although heavily outnumbered, my ships destroyed my opponants ships and took trivial damage in the process.  :shock:

Re: Basin Feedback Thread

BeowulfJB wrote:

My BBs range in cost from the 18 hull USS Texas BPV=947 to the 20 hull USS Pennsylvania BPV=1125.  They are escorted by DDGs, which carry speed 15 strikers that hit on 3+, have ROF=3, and piercing.  These cantarget fighters or any arracking "torpedo boats".  They are very effective... 8)

In a game at a convention, I played some of my ships against ships that were  similiar to the ISS book ships.  Although heavily outnumbered, my ships destroyed my opponants ships and took trivial damage in the process.  :shock:

Against that, I'd use spinal mounts on small ships vs the big ships, and corvettes to screen the DDG's. I'd have to have high speed on all my ships to control the range.

Go after the escorts with all my ships first. Leave none alive before going after the big boys.

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