Topic: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Ho to all!!

I'm a newbie at Starmada, but this jump to me:

Continuing damage is rated 1,7 while Extra Hull Damage is rated 3,0.

Now, If I've understand how they works there are somethings wrong...

Making an example:

I'm doing 6 point of damage, and roll 1,2,3,4,5,6.

In the case of a Continuing Damage I'll do 3 point of Hull, and two Weapons, Shield and Engine hits. Now I take the 2, 4 and 6 and reroll them. Say they came with a 1,2,3. There are another 2 hull damage and another two Engine Hit and another Shield Hit. Now I roll the 2 and this come to a 4!! So another Shield Hit. Roll again and come to a 5, for a final Weapon Hit and another Hull Hit. So I've managed to have 6 hull hit, 4 engine, 4 shield and 3 weapon... Ouch...

In the case of a Extra damage you got "only"  point of Hull, and two Weapons, Shield and Engine hits.

Now, I'm pretty sure this can't be correct, or this abilities are bad priced.

Please let me know where I wrong.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Those nine points of hull damage also reduce the ship's capacity to repair already damaged systems, make it more susceptible to capture, and, should the ship have less than ten hull points, result in the absolute destruction of the ship.

The thing is, with EHD, even with the most unfavorable damage roll, you're absolutely guaranteed one hull hit for every damage point rolled on top of any other damage done, which isn't the case for any other weapon system in the game. Continuous damage weapons don't have that guarantee, or even of getting a second roll at all due to its mechanics. Extra system damage is nice, but it's hull damage that has the most direct, concrete contribution to removing a ship from play.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Actually with continuing damage you are guaranteed hull hits.  You always reroll the dice until you get an odd number so every damage point will always result in a hull hit plus possibly system hits.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Also, if the target-ship has armored hull, andyour first roll is a 1, then you do no hull damage and then stop. :shock:

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

BeowulfJB wrote:

Also, if the target-ship has armored hull, andyour first roll is a 1, then you do no hull damage and then stop. :shock:

No engine damage, either. And I believe that EHD still deals that point of hull damage on a roll of one to Armor-Plated ships. I know it was clarified on this board, I just can't find the post...

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

RiflemanIII wrote:
BeowulfJB wrote:

Also, if the target-ship has armored hull, andyour first roll is a 1, then you do no hull damage and then stop. :shock:

No engine damage, either. And I believe that EHD still deals that point of hull damage on a roll of one to Armor-Plated ships. I know it was clarified on this board, I just can't find the post...

You are correct. I recall that post from Dan also.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Id need to play with the math a bit more, but its starting to look like the continuing damage solution, because of how it plays out, may generate -more- hull damage per CR point than the Extra Hull Damage approach (barring Armored Hulls).

Given their respective multipliers, you can buy 30 damage in continuing  damage for the price of 17 damage of extra hull damage.

17 Extra Hull Damage Dice will deal between 17 and 34 hull damage, with a mean of 25.5

30 Damage in Continuing Damage will deal -exactly- 30 hull damage, neither more nor less (as each die will be rerolled until it deals a point of hull damage, and stops there)

So, for the same points, continuing damage grants you greater mean damage, and greater minimum damage.  Extra Hull Damage grants you greater maximum damage, but by a smaller margin than the Continuing damages mean damage advantage.

Now, to check Armored Hulls...

17 Extra Hull Damage Dice will deal... between 17 and 34, again, but the mean is lowered to 22.66

30 Continuing damage will be rerolled until they get an odd number, for a mean of 20 hull damage, and a spread from 0-30.  Here, the EHD has an advantage in minimum, maximum, and mean, though the 'mean' advantage is alot lower, and would (I would argue) be more than payed for by the MASSIVE advantage in system hits (especially weapons).

Continuing Damage may be under priced.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Wait... If I roll an 1,3,5 with extra hull damage I'll do 6 damage? So in my previous example the 1,2,3,4,5,6 will do 9 point of damage?

If so then maybe EHD isn't so bad, but it seem overpriced in comparison to CD, since damaging system like engine of shield could transform a powerful ship in a sitting duck...

Or CD is underpriced... but at this point I leave this issue to more math oriented people big_smile

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Zerloon wrote:

Wait... If I roll an 1,3,5 with extra hull damage I'll do 6 damage? So in my previous example the 1,2,3,4,5,6 will do 9 point of damage?

Yep. It always does an extra point of hull damage on top of any other damage effects, including other hull damage. Another thing to remember is that Continuous damage is damage over time, rather than instantaneously- you'd get that 9-2-2-2 immediately, rather than 6-4-4-3 over the course of four turns.

In other words, while you might get 6-4-4-3 eventually, the hypothetical first round exchange was 9-2-2-2 vs. 3-2-2-2.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

The rationale is as follows:

Extra Hull Damage: Normal damage (1.0) plus an additional hull hit (which occurs 50% of the time, so this is the "same" as rolling an additional two dice).  Thus, 1.0 + 2.0 = 3.0

Continuing Damage: Normal damage (1.0) plus 50% chance of an additional die roll (+0.5) plus a 50% chance of an additional die roll (+[0.5 x 0.5]) etc... According to the solution to Xeno's dichotomy paradox, this results in a sum of 2.0 (1.0 + 1.0). However, since the CD weapon can never score more than a single hull hit, it's not quite as effective as rolling the equivalent number of dice, so it is reduced to 1.7. (I think I had a more "precise" rationale for this one, but I don't remember what it was ... smile)

Obviously, I think these are the "correct" values, but I am not infallible, and will listen to arguments to the contrary.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

RiflemanIII wrote:

Another thing to remember is that Continuous damage is damage over time, rather than instantaneously- you'd get that 9-2-2-2 immediately, rather than 6-4-4-3 over the course of four turns.

Actually, all damage is rolled immediately... there is no ongoing effect across turns.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

cricket wrote:

Actually, all damage is rolled immediately... there is no ongoing effect across turns.

Yeah, I just caught that... That shows me for looking up Mekton stuff right before posting around here.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

RiflemanIII wrote:

Yeah, I just caught that... That shows me for looking up Mekton stuff right before posting around here.

'sokay. Continuing Damage USED to be spread out across turns, so you weren't far off... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Dan... the thing is, though continuing may never score more than one hull hit, it may also never score less than one hull it.

As the typical die scores 1/2 of a hull hit, and as (as was discussed before) the sum of the series for continuing damage is 2...

1 'continuing damage' die scores the same damage as 2 'normal' dice, and its hull damage is strictly regularized.. rather than 0-2 damage (normal dice condition), its always 1 damage per continuing damage die.

Now, whether variable or consistent damage is preferable is up to you. *G*

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

I could be convinced that the Continuing Damage modifier should be x2.0, instead of x1.7.

However, as it would result in only an 8% difference in final Combat Rating, I'm not sure it's a huge issue, however... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Agreed on 'not huge issue'

I think it comes down to how we value variability.  IE, is a weapon that does 1-9 worth more, or less, than a weapon that always does 5 damage?

See, it seemed back when I read continuing damage that the authors intent was 'extra good at knocking out systems'... whereas the current implementation amounts to 'each damage dice is exactly 1 hull damage (same as 2 usual damage dice) and potentially either very little or quite a lot of system damage'

Another question, now that were talking about system damage in general..

Is it just me, or is 'no hull damage' valued at .7 based on the assumption that Damage Control rules are not in effect?  Without DC in effect, it looks cool.  With Damage control...  I like the flavor, but it doesn't seem justifiable.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

The big difference is that Continuing Damage is a *LOT* more fun! Especially when your damage roll comes up with a ton of even numbers and you realize that the other guy is in for a world of hurt. :twisted:

BTW--I especially like how most of the weapon mods are kept pretty simple, usually with a +/-1 effect. Very easy to remember.

Re: Continuing Damage VS Extra Hull Damage

Agreed.  While I miss, from a crunchy-broken sense of the word, my half-sheild reduced-penetration weapons, I think all the +1 and -1 modifiers balance better, and are easier to keep track of at the gaming table.