Topic: First Impressions

So I received the game this Monday (along with the ISS) and have started to look through it.  Combined with my VBAM (Victory by Any Means) shipment I've begun to create races and ships.  My first impression is, the system looks really cool (of course I'm doing this backwards and making the ships first instead of just trying out the game using the ships in the ISS or demo to test the game system).  I'll fly a couple of solo battles this weekend.

One race I'm working on at the moment is a 'bombardment' race (called the Terran Unified Republic) which is built around smashing the enemy from a distance and taking little casualties in return.  If the enemy can close in however, they may have problems (especially with the Minimum range trait on most of their bombardment ships).

The fleet will be built around the bombardment ships which will likely be Cruiser sized or bigger.  The larger ships won't necessarily have a ton more weapons, but they'll add in extra traits (particularly the other Inverted Range Traits, and the 'Area Effect' trait to the basics of "Variable Impact", "Minimum Range", "Non Piercing" and "Inverted Range Based Mods").  Yup, these are trait heavy weapons, such that only a few will be able to placed on most ships.  The larger ships will have ones with higher IMP and DMG values but will likely be "Slow Firing".  The weapons will primarily be placed in 'broadside' arcs (BDF, ACE).  To accomadate the larger ship's weapons, Overthrusters will be common.  Any extra space will be used for Seekers, continuing the theme of 'keep the enemy away while killing them, and don't risk any more people than we have to'.

Obviously there needs to be more deterrent to charging ships, so the escorts to the fleet will be designed to launch seekers, and will have more traditional, close range weaponry.  In general these will be placed, ideally, between the enemy and the bombardment ships.  They will receive as many defensive abilities as possible while keeping enough weapons to do their job.  Ideally, every fleet would be made up of some multiple of 3 Escorts, 2 Cruiser sized ships, and 1 Dreadnought with three echelons, the escorts closest to the enemy, the cruisers in the next echelon, and the dreadnoughts in the final echelon.

Whether or not this 'fleet' would be effective, I couldn't say.  I can certainly see weaknesses.  My main point is, that almost immediately the game started to get my creativeness going, and that's a very good thing.

Re: First Impressions

Hello and Welcome to Starmada big_smile

One of the reasons I enjoy this game is because it gets my creativeness going also.
Your fleet is very interesting.   :idea: To deal with ships closing on your Long-range ships, install a secondary battery that has Range based ROF, range based damage, etc.  Give it a long range with caronade.  This way, those ships or fighters closing can be fired at by these secondaries while the long-ranged battery continues to pound away at more distant targets. 
My main BBs have mains that fire out to 30, and secondary weapons that fire out to 20 with caronade and also have range based ROF.  These ships can pulverise up to a dozen fighters a turn at short range (out to 10 hx).
Last week, they were very effective in the games I played down in Davie in S. Florida @ Gaming Glen's awesome gaming store.

Re: First Impressions

BeowulfJB wrote:

Hello and Welcome to Starmada big_smile


Last week, they were very effective in the games I played down in Davie in S. Florida @ Gaming Glen's awesome gaming store.

"very effective" depends on which side you're on.   :cry:

Re: First Impressions

All's fair in love and wargames....

Re: First Impressions

Interesting thoughts on the secondary batteries...

It might be something I add 'historically'.  The  thing is I'm creating 4 races at the start of their spacefaring eras (to also be used in a VBAM campaign) with ships and tactics based on their history, politics and biology.  The Terran Unified Republic gets its initial tactics and ships built around  the idea of "as few losses as possible" due to the influence of public opinion in Earth's past few wars.  Another race is influenced more by biology.. being a chameleon/shapeshifter race.  They use the stealth, cloaking, countermeasures type of traits to keep their ships alive, but initially will be fairly generic weapon wise.  The concept being that they utilize ideas they see used against them (more so than finding counters to them).  Another race with a biology based on fish, particularly schooling fish, will have primarily smaller ships with lots of fighters. 

So I guess my main focus of the game isn't to make a perfect ship, weapon, or combination, but to start from a strong concept for each race, and then evolve the concepts based on what weaknesses are exposed in battle.

Re: First Impressions

Be sure to give yourself time to develop tactics for the various races. Each race would give a great deal of thought on how to use each type of ship. Changes to the ships would be slow in coming, so the local commanders would have to live with what they have for a while. I thought of doing something similar with a VBAM campaign, so I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes.

Re: First Impressions

anvil242 wrote:

Be sure to give yourself time to develop tactics for the various races. Each race would give a great deal of thought on how to use each type of ship. Changes to the ships would be slow in coming, so the local commanders would have to live with what they have for a while. I thought of doing something similar with a VBAM campaign, so I'm looking forward to hearing how this goes.

I'd like to add a 'here here' to the above.  I -constantly- battle with myself not to change at least one niggling little thing about my ships every game.  The line between refining and 'munging everything until its generic' is a fine one, as is the tendancy to refight the last war.  If the fleets we use are to have any flavor other than 'whatever beats whatever I'm likely to fight today' (not that there is necessarily something wrong with that), we have to exercise a little self control in how we change things.

And as has been pointed out, just because what sounded like a wonder-weapon in the lab turned out to be a tragic failure in practice, doesnt mean that an empire can afford to overhaul its entire navy overnight.

On the other hand, if you choose to view at least some of your games as simulations, rather than real-space battles happening in real conflicts, the 'tinker after every fight' impulse we all suffer from does make a little more sense...

Re: First Impressions

I love the concepts so far....

Be interesting to see how those races play out.

Also remember that soldiers tend to develop loyalty to certain equipment....and the people who make final decisions towards change (and also develop the force's tactics) tend to be the older officers... who are used to, and plan their tactics based on equipment that they are most familiar with.....

Entrenched loyalty to older tactics plays a huge part in what equipment is in general usage, and how it is used....

You can draw a lot of parallels based on how tanks were used by various militaries during the second world war..... part of what made German army advances so dangerous was the fact that they used their tanks as mobile heavy hitters, rather than short ranged fixed artillery mounted in a hard position (unless they were moving the battle line).... which is how France and England initially used their tanks. The German model became the standard once it was proven effective, but the Allied Officers needed to see it as effective before they began to adopt the tactic for use.

John

Re: First Impressions

Thanks for the recent thoughts...

I'm just beginning to get back around to setting up the VBAM campaign which will serve as the basis for the 'history' of the four races I listed above.  VBAM should keep the fleets realistic (especially with the optional prototyping rules) if they run into a tactic or race that 'trumps' theirs.  A race might come up with a method to defeat the tactic, but first they'll have to make a prototype for the new technology.  Once the prototypes are in play, they may not "play well" with the older ships, and so there should be a realistic delay in upgrading the whole fleet.  And of course, there'll be the natural tension between "Go with what we have even if it's inferior because we can make it cheaply and easily, or sink some of those resources into new technology which may not be available in amounts enough to make a difference in the current conflict."

Heck, I'm not even sure which races will contact each other first, which will make a big difference in the development of fleets.

Mind you, I have a whole host of projects I want to do, so it's not even definite I'll get to this one anytime soon, but it should be entertaining!

Re: First Impressions

Ok, so I finally PLAYED the game last night.  I did a solitaire run with two Takulyo class Kalaedinese Destroyers and a Cekalyo class Kalaedinese Cruiser against a Raikou Class Arcturan Battleship from the ISS.

This was a blast.  I guess, coming from a Star Fleet Battles background, that I worried that the loss of detail would lead to a pretty luck dependent, generic feeling game.  Using just the Basic Rules + Sideslips (plus the individual ship and weapon traits used by the classes listed above), I think this game is simply fun while keeping the important tactical options.  The game is really all about maneuvering for the best shot.  I wasn't sure how I'd feel about the simultaneous movement of multiple hexes followed by firing (specifically the concept of not being able to fire at the enemy as it moves from one point to another) but it works beautifully. 

The battle itself came right down to the wire with the toothless (weaponless) Raikou accelerating away from the crippled Kalaedinese fleet (two ships with 1 hull left, one destroyer with 1 weapon left) with 19 fighters still harrassing them.  The most likely outcome was that the relatively undamaged Destroyer would have escaped with the other two Kalaedinese ships being destroyed.  The Raikou also would have been able to escape but would have a long time in a repair dock before it would be able to come back to the front.

One issue I had was with the size of the map.  It didn't come into play much, but for a ship I've designed it could.  I'm curious whether anyone plays with 'floating maps' (ie, when a ship is about to leave the map, move all ships a certain number of hexes away from the map edge about to be exited.. if there's no way to resolve the situation so all ships remain on the map, then the moving ship still leaves... of course, this is somewhat problematic when it comes to simultaneous movement)?

Re: First Impressions

I have been known to play with floating maps.

So long as everyone builds and plays in good faith, floaty maps are to me alot more realistic (space having no walls).

However, be aware that there are ship designs that, played on a floating map, may prove less than fun to play against.  Given good faith on the part of all players, this shouldn't be an issue most times.

Re: First Impressions

Yup, as a Star Fleet Battles player, I know all about the problems of floating maps.  My impression is that as long as one side doesn't have to 'defend' something, there's not likely to be a decisive engagement.  I tend to look at these things from a real war perspective.  A stronger side going up against a  weaker side probably will just watch the weaker side disengage.  If the two sides are equal, unless for some reason both wish a decisive engagement, they probably won't become too heavily entangled.

It's when a fixed position, or route, needs to be defended that decisive battles would occur, and in those I tend to use a variant of a floating map such that the position being defended must always remain on the map.

Re: First Impressions

I really like the 'floats, but objective must stay on the map'.  Seems a reasonable compromise.

And if your here from SFB, welcome again.  I do love SFB, and its my accept-no-substitute game for Wrath of Khan style ship dueling... but I think SM is probably the queen of Squadron Style engagements... up to small fleets.

I wouldnt want to try to do Jutland with SMAE.. but it would be perfect for the Battlecruiser engagement (assuming we all overlook the light cruisers, etc. smile )

Re: First Impressions

Marcus Smythe wrote:

I wouldnt want to try to do Jutland with SMAE.. but it would be perfect for the Battlecruiser engagement (assuming we all overlook the light cruisers, etc. smile )

Funny you should mention that...

Heh heh heh... wink

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: First Impressions

cricket wrote:
Marcus Smythe wrote:

I wouldnt want to try to do Jutland with SMAE.. but it would be perfect for the Battlecruiser engagement (assuming we all overlook the light cruisers, etc. smile )

Funny you should mention that...

Heh heh heh... wink

Tease.

Re: First Impressions

Jutland. . . that's what we have Grand Fleets for!  smile  I'm actually looking at running Jutland at GenCon *next* year. . . down to the light cruisers. . . probably not the destroyer flotillas. . . got about 90% of everything already painted and based.  Just a double fistful of extra stuff to get at this point. . .

What I'd love to see is a campaign system for Grand Fleets!   big_smile