Rolling a bucket of dice for each ship will be time consuming with 15-20 ships. IMO.

Why not roll for Turrets and Multi Ship salvoes when resolving fire?

For example- BBs X, Y & Z are all within main gun range of an opposing BB they wish to target. The BBs have 7 Turrets that they can bring to bear. Thus they roll 7 dice. This is much faster than rolling 10 dice for each ship. 

Another idea that could work with the above would be using different dice types to represent different weapon turrets.

Examples-
4”-8” Single Turret 1d4
9”-12” Single Gun Turret 1d6
13-16” Single Gun Turret 1d8
Each Extra gun in a turret bumps up a die type, thus-
Twin 5” 1d6
Twin 11” 1d8
Twin 14” 1d10
Triple 16” 1d12

(Note I'm just tossing these numbers out there as far as which caliber guns should be within a grouping)

Another way of speeding things up would be if the attack roll also indicated the effect of the hit.

Using the above dice types perhaps the lower dice can only really affect a BB indirectly knocking out com, radar, etc. In other words hitting something not armored.

The larger dice would chew up a lighter ship but would need to roll well to cause major damage to another large ship.

Just some ideas to to ponder. 
Rich

So in other words you're advocating...
Buckets of dice.  :wink:

Using Moltke again, she had (5) 11" turrets.
At a die per turret, that'd be (5) dice.
Where you'd get into some "problems" using this method is in the secondaries. Moltke also had (12) individual 6" guns. At a die per gun that's (12) dice. Of course, half of them were on the port side of the ship while the other half were on the starboard side.

There are a lot of different ways to approach this design problem that will obtain similar results.
I guess what I'm looking for to begin with are opinions on whether it's preferable rolling one or two dice and consulting a table, or rolling more dice (say 3 to 12) and not having to consult a table.
So far, it sounds like people don't have a problem with rolling a number of dice at one time, as long as it's a "manageable" number.
Kevin

-- Deleted --

One could reduce a ship to a number of dice for each arc (Bow/Stern/Port/Starboard) and for each weapon level (Primary/Secondary Batteries) based on some sort of attack rating, which may be affected by damage.

Thus a BB may roll 4d6 Primary 2d6 Secondary dice for a broadside. Even though there are many more actual guns in the secondary they just are not as lethal and take more guns to create a die (attack value).

-- Deleted --

Send me your e-mail, and I'll send along a couple of small documents that show you what I've got in mind.
Kevin

ksmith19@cox.net

Okay, here are a few ideas I've had floating around for several months now. This will be harder to do without displaying an actual ship card, but I think you'll get an idea of the basic gunfire mechanic I'd like to use.
In our example Evstafi is facing off against Goeben, with both ships using just their primaries in this example.

Goeben   
Pts: xxx
Hull: OOOO / OOO
Spd: 3 / 2   
Arm: 4
Torp: 4dxO@3

Weapons   
11”
Range: 3 / 6
PEN: 3
Gun Dice: 8, 6, 5, 3, 2

Evstafi   
Pts: xxx
Hull: OO / OO
Spd: 2 / 1
Arm: 3
Torp: 2dxO@1

Weapons   
12”
Range: 3 / 6   
PEN 3P   
Gun Dice: 3, 2, 2, 1, 1
   
Okay, here are the basics...
GUNFIRE RESOLUTION
The indicated number of dice (d6) in the first (left) gun dice column are rolled, with each result of 5 or 6 scoring a damaging hit on the target.
Positive modifiers will be left column shifts, while negativew modifiers will be right column shifts.
Now to our example.

The Evstafi and Goeben are four hexes away from each other, each moving at speed three, and in each other's broadside arc. Combat is resolved simultaneously. The players decide to resolve Goeben's gunfire first.

Goeben begins with (8) 11” dice. The 11” guns have a penetration of 4, with the Evstafi having an armor value of 3. Therefore, there is no column shift.
However, the 11” guns are at long range, and the Evstafi is a small target. That results in a two column shift to the right, giving Goeben (5) 11” dice. The roll results in one 6, causing one hull damage.

Evstafi begins with (3) 12” dice. The 12” guns have a penetration of 3, with the Goeben having an armor value of 4. The 12” guns are at long range, though, and can plunge fire, which reduces Goeben's armor value by one. This results in no shift due to penetration. Because they are at long range there is a one column shift due to range. This results in a net one column shift, giving Evstafi (2) 12” dice. The roll results in a miss.

That is combat in a nutshell.
I'll try to post a little more thorough report tomorrow, with maybe some ship cards to back it up.
Kevin

The problem with opposed rolls I've seen in other games, is that the vagaries of the dice can produce some really wonky results, like large caliber guns glancing off thin armor, or small caliber guns getting good hits against heavily armored opponents.

If the dice type isn't big enough to produce those kinds of results, then its generally a small enough difference that you're better off just eliminating it altogether.

Okay all, I really like that we're getting some discussion on this.
As Dan will tell you, I've been bugging him for a fleet level game ever since Grand Fleets first came out. A few months ago, he and I actually put together some skeleton ideas for a fleet level game. I certainly don't want to stop any ideas from coming in, but let me discuss what we've come up with to this point.

Here's a link to a few sample ship cards that I've put together.

http://mj12games.com/samples.png

While the data generation may change a little, I'd like to head in the general direction we've started.
So here's how to interpret the card.

Spd: The first number is the undamaged movement point allowance (in hexes), while the number after the slash is the damaged movement point allowance.

Arm: The armor rating of the ship.

Torp: This multi-value shows the number of torpedo dice, the number of torpedo salvos (shots), and the range they can be fired at.

Hull: The boxes before the slash show the number of hits a ship can take before it becomes damaged. The number of boxes after the slash show how many hits a damaged ship can take before it sinks.

Weapons: Each weapon entry will have a gun type, range, penetration value, and five columns of gun dice.
Gun type: Probably self-explanatory.
Range: The number before the slash shows close range (in hexes), while the number after the slash shows long range.
Penetration: The penetration is the gun's ability to penetrate armor, and is compared to the armor value of a target.
Gun Dice: Each gun dice column shows a number of dice that are rolled when a weapon is fired. Assuming no modifiers, the left-most column is used. Positive modifiers will shift the column used to the left, while negative modifiers will shift the column used to the right.

Superscripts: You may have noticed the superscripts on a few of the values. For now, I'm seeing those as optional. But for those who like a little more detail, here's what they mean:

P: This indicates plunging fire capability at long range, and it lowers the target's effective armor value by one.
WT: This indicates wing (turret) gun positions. The ship incurs a -2 column shift when firing to port or starboard.
CL: This indicates centerline turrets. No penalty is incurred when firing to port or starboard, but a -3 column shift is incurred when firing fore or aft (normally a -2 penalty).

GUNFIRE RESOLUTION
The indicated number of dice (d6) in the first (left) gun dice column are rolled, with each result of 5 or 6 scoring a damaging hit on the target.

Here are the proposed modifiers for gunfire.
Each modifier is either a positive shift (left), or a negative shift (right)

PEN < Armor = -1 per level less than

Long Range = -1

Forward/Aft Arc = -2 (Starmada G & L arcs)

Target Speed 0-1 = +1
Target Speed 2-3 = 0
Target Speed 4+ = -1

Target Size 1-4 = -1
Target Size 5-10 = 0
Target Size 11-18 = +1

Out of command = -1

The following are the proposed armor modifications:

Plunging Fire = -1 to Armor (not cumulative with the end armor penalty)
End Armor = -1 to Armor (not cumulative with the plunging armor penalty)

Okay, now having said all of that, here's an example of how gunfire resolution works.

The Konig and Malaya are six hexes away from each other, each moving at speed three, and in each other's broadside arc. Combat is resolved simultaneously. The players decide to resolve Konig's gunfire first.

Konig begins with (9) 12” dice. The 12” guns have a penetration of 4, with the Malaya having an armor value of 4. Therefore, there is no column shift.
However, the 12” guns are at long range. That results in a one column shift to the right, giving Konig (7) 12” dice. The roll results in one 6 and one 5, causing two hull damage.
Next, Konig has (3) 6” dice. The 6” guns have a penetration of 1, which would normally result in a three column shift (pen 1 versus armor 4). The 6” guns are at long range, however, which allows them to plunge fire, decreasing the Malaya's armor value by one. This results in only a otwo column shift due to penetration.
Because they are at long range, another one column shift is applied, which gives a net three column shift. This gives Konig (1) 6” dice, which is rolled and misses.
Konig's light guns are out of range.

The Malaya's gunfire will be resolved after lunch. 

Okay, now it's time for the Malaya. As Dan is rolling for Malaya, all dice come up either a one or two, and so all gunfire is ineffective.
Just kidding, of course. But I have seen him roll dice.

Malaya begins with (10) 15” dice. The 15” guns have a penetration of 5, with the Konig having an armor value of 5. The 15” guns are at long range, though, and can plunge fire, which reduces Konig's armor value by one. This results in no shift due to penetration. Because they are at long range there is a one column shift due to range. This results in a net one column shift, giving Malaya (8 ) 15” dice. The roll results in one five, which causes one hull point of damage. 
Next, Malaya has (3) 6” dice. The 6” guns have a penetration of 1, which would normally result in a four column shift (pen 1 versus armor 5). The 6” guns are at long range and can plunge fire, which again reduces Konig's armor value by one. This results in a three column shift due to penetration.
But again because they are at long range there is a one column shift due to range. This results in a net four column shift, giving Malaya (1) 6” dice. The roll results in a miss.
Malaya's light guns are out of range.

So there's an example of the proposed gunfire mechanic.
Too complex or fiddly for a fleet level game?
Any thoughts?
Kevin

But why go back and delete your posts?  You never know when that stuff will spark a different game/discusion.

The mechanic looks fine, but ya won't know more until you put 25 to 40 ships on the board and try it out.  Why isn't there a +1 shift for a PEN higher than ARM.  Seems to me that it should be, but I'm not too worried if it's left out.

-Bren

A good question. . .

I would tend to think though that a negative column shift for penetration that was not high enough to penetrate the armor reflects that lack of penetration. 

But if the shell *IS* enough to penetrate the armor, even more penetration is not a good thing.  In fact, too much could actually be a bad thing as the shell would pass right through the ship and not explode.

So, just because the pen value is higher than the armor, does not necessarily equate to more damage.  Make sense?

I guess one question I have, not yet having studied it in detail (you sending those files?). . .

You start out on the left-most column, correct?  What if there are leftward column shifts when you're already on the left-most column?  Can this ever happen?

What about a system where you start out on the left-most column. .  and that is the BEST possible result you can get under ideal circumstances, and there are *ONLY* factors that cause rightward shifts to be considered. 

Its the whole "math should only go in one direction" thing that speeds up play.  Its easier for people to check off a list of factors and move that many columns right, than it is to check off a list of right shifts, check off a list of left shifts, net the two together, and apply that to the sheet.  Make sense?