Topic: Technical Stuff?

Just wondering about technical stuff...

Ship speeds? operational ranges? detection ranges?  time scales in game?

What tech are we using?

Early 1900s?

If so are we using clockwork driven telescopes/big eyes to scan for enemy ships? 

What type of weapons are we using?  Cannon?  If so how do we offset the "equal and opposite reaction"?  If we don't use radar how can we tell if our fire is accurate?  Tracer rounds on the shells?  If so the enemy can dodge the enemy rounds!  Cannon shells barely travelled 1000yds/sec back then.  That means at "typical naval ranges" (10 nautical miles approximately) you would have 20 seconds to react to incoming fire!  Not an issue on Terra Firma, you probably can't see incoming and your speed is limited.

Are we using Tesla's ideas about torpedoes? He proposed radio controlled torpedoes early on.

What do we do about lack of gravity on ships?  Inertia?

What is the scale?  Does an inch equal 1000yds?  2000yds?  500yds?

I say we let the Luminiferous Aether be our magic doohickey.

Use Aetherscopes for detection.  Charge the ships with electricity to provide stability to counteract firing.  Say that the Aether provides an inertial sump during movement.  Say that you can charge the decks and the Aether holds everything people included to the deck like artificial gravity.  Charge the rounds prior to firing to allow vastly increased velocity within the Aether.  This may look like a beam of light as the charge wears off (I stole this from Star Trek--phased lasers [allowing lasers to work in warp] became phasers). The Aether Torpedoes would sort of look like photon torpedoes in flight for the same reason (the electric charge interacting with the Aether and giving off light).

I want to write some stories and it would help to know this stuff.  If anyone could point me to the technical data it would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Technical Stuff?

I'll get corrected if I mistate this...but typically, the technical stuff gets sort of ignored in the face of the fun stuff. There probably isn't much information on what you're asking outside of basic assumptions. Such as it being the ether rather than space, the laws of physics as we know them probably operate differently...like as not, such as there being negligible issue with cannon fire and kickback reaction. Then again, the cannon may be on a shock absorbing carriage, operating much like a recoiless rifle in effect if not in action.  The time line is the years before the first WW so far.  Ships have gravity...leastwise that's been the assumption. Nothing's been said about inertia other than the ether does create, in effect, drag...hence only half of the ship's velocity carrying over turn to turn.

Dan's always been pretty open minded when it comes to the telling of a good story vs the nuts n bolts...just run it by him before kicking it out would be my recommendation and opinion.  smile

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

Just wondering about technical stuff...Ship speeds? operational ranges? detection ranges?  time scales in game?

Dan's call.....speed in knots unless using "Interplanetary Waves"?

Operational? Moon Orbit?

Detection? a few miles I'd imagine - pretty close for a spaceship game.

We use minutes and hours..
big_smile

CPTCole wrote:

What tech are we using?

Radio Valves are high tech marvels...


CPTCole wrote:

Early 1900s?

:ugeek: Got it in ONE...


CPTCole wrote:

If so are we using clockwork driven telescopes/big eyes to scan for enemy ships?

Sure - and human lookouts


CPTCole wrote:

What type of weapons are we using?

Cannons, Torpedoes with rockets vs little props, Martian Heat Rays, Hale Rockets....


CPTCole wrote:

Cannon?

It's literally 'Battleships in Space' as far as I know.


CPTCole wrote:

If so how do we offset the "equal and opposite reaction"?

Aether sails interact with the Aether like a hull and rudder do in water.


CPTCole wrote:

If we don't use radar how can we tell if our fire is accurate?

 

Look for big explosions...?
big_smile

You'd have guys watching the shells as they move. You don't have ballistics or aerodynamics to account for - it's just "point at the target, adjust for the course they're on, and fire away"....


CPTCole wrote:

Tracer rounds on the shells?

I don't think you need 'em, but you could....


CPTCole wrote:

If so the enemy can dodge the enemy rounds!

Could a battleship dodge a shell?


CPTCole wrote:

Cannon shells barely travelled 1000yds/sec back then.

I don't see the problem...


CPTCole wrote:

That means at "typical naval ranges" (10 nautical miles approximately) you would have 20 seconds to react to incoming fire!  Not an issue on Terra Firma, you probably can't see incoming and your speed is limited.

Depending on what you percieve the acceleration to be (depends on scale, and that's Dan's baliwick), I don't really think so. I see Aethernoughts as being literally 'battleships in space', and not moving real fast relative to each other until they have been moving for a long time - for example - while on route to Mars.


CPTCole wrote:

Are we using Tesla's ideas about torpedoes? He proposed radio controlled torpedoes early on.

Eh, Radio was real bulky back then - unlikely. Electronics would be minimal.


CPTCole wrote:

What do we do about lack of gravity on ships?  Inertia?

Some guys are gonna get sick to their stomachs....


CPTCole wrote:

What is the scale?  Does an inch equal 1000yds?  2000yds?  500yds?

Dan?


CPTCole wrote:

I say we let the Luminiferous Aether be our magic doohickey.

Way ahead of ya....
big_smile


CPTCole wrote:

Use Aetherscopes for detection.

<shrugs> maybe....


CPTCole wrote:

Charge the ships with electricity to provide stability to counteract firing.

 

Nope - see the earlier comment....


CPTCole wrote:

Say that the Aether provides an inertial sump during movement.

 

I think that's sort of implicit in the movement rules...


CPTCole wrote:

Say that you can charge the decks and the Aether holds everything people included to the deck like artificial gravity.

Nope - magnetic soles if you're outside - it's barf-bag time....


CPTCole wrote:

Charge the rounds prior to firing to allow vastly increased velocity within the Aether.

Eh...why?


CPTCole wrote:

This may look like a beam of light as the charge wears off (I stole this from Star Trek--phased lasers [allowing lasers to work in warp] became phasers).

It's 'Battleships in space' - not "Trek tech on a Dreadnought"...."in space"


CPTCole wrote:

The Aether Torpedoes would sort of look like photon torpedoes in flight for the same reason (the electric charge interacting with the Aether and giving off light).

No need...why do this?


CPTCole wrote:

I want to write some stories and it would help to know this stuff.  If anyone could point me to the technical data it would be greatly appreciated.

There's another thread about IS tech here somewhere....

Re: Technical Stuff?

As far as time was concerned I figured we were using parsecs (see original Star Wars).  Only a bubblehead.  big_smile 

What is the time scale per turn?  Each inch equals what distance?  Each turn represents how much time?   :roll:

You would use tracers to track and adjust your fire.  At sea you can watch your shells as they hit the water to adjust fire..."in space no one can see your steam"  lol So you'd use tracers to adjust fire.  Because visually tracking your rounds beyond a mile would be just about impossible.  And mechanical ballistic computers were rare as hen's teeth (entire ships were built around them). But, the tracers would have the effect of telegraphing your shots.  With a velocity of 1000 yds/sec a battlewagon shell would be visibly on the way for up to 20 seconds at 10 nautical miles.  Plenty of time to shift a ship enough for the rounds to miss.  I know you are a submariner so I'll cut you some slack.   lol  Which is why I am asking about speed of the ships...are they too ponderous to dodge or are they moving so fast it's not an issue?  I get it.  It's dreadnaughts in space so no dodging battleships.  8-) No Trek tech got it.  So no beam of light from the gunfire.  But Aether Torpedoes would still look like photon torpedoes...sorry.  As the torpedo propulsion system interacts with the Aether they'll give off light as a byproduct (as someone noted would happen with the Aether sails on ships--in reference to the different countries having different colored sails  :ugeek:  ). 

I wasn't clear on explaining the inertial sump thing.  If we have a ship going to Mars or the Moon for that matter, higher velocities are acheivable using the rules as written.  The only thing that interacts with the Aether is the sails and propellors...they are the only thing charged per your description.  So if a ship travelling at 100 or 1000 inches per turn allows the momentum rules to bring it to a stop what would the end result for the crew be (go from 100 inches to 50 inches or from 1000 inches to 500 inches in one turn)?  They end up as red smears on the front bulkhead!   :shock:  Or the front end of the ship would tear off...funny but not to the admiral that has to explain it to his government.  lol  An inertial sump would act to compensate for changes in inertia for the crew and ship (and internal gear--"I say better stop loading the 500lb shell in the gun"--"why?"--ship maneuvers--gun bunny squished like bug--"That's why." Ok this maybe an exageration but ships and crews would have to be a lot more constrained, or at least cognizant of their situation than they generally are on the ground).  Without gravity all sorts of things become very difficult...and maybe just out and out impossible with straight 1900's tech.  That's why I am proposing Aether Tech along with 1900's tech.  :ugeek:

Aether Sails and propellors probably would not be enough to stabilize a ship while firing.  They would just act as pivot points, or would add increased strain on the rest of the ship as it flexed at said pivot point.  So you'd probably need something that stabilized the entire ship.  This would be critical during maneuvering as well as during firing.

I am no Naval architect, but I have been to sea in a typhoon three times and spent 4 years at sea.  So I have a pretty good idea about how maneuvering and weather, effects a crew and equipment. (Saw the cow fly across the galley one time  lol ) That would just be magnified by operating in a zero g environment.

So recoilles rifles for guns?  If so the pictures you've done are really off.  Unless you want them to vent inside the ship?  :oops:

Re: Technical Stuff?

Let me preface this with the following disclaimer: I refuse to get drawn into specific details on tech. Ships do what they do because it works from a gaming perspective -- not because that's how they WOULD work in such a setting.

However, the basic assumption is 1900-1910 technology with the addition of two things: Cavorite (for anti-gravity purposes) and the aether (for space navigation).

CPTCole wrote:

That means at "typical naval ranges" (10 nautical miles approximately) you would have 20 seconds to react to incoming fire!

Yes. And your point is... ? smile

Not an issue on Terra Firma, you probably can't see incoming and your speed is limited.

Actually, wet-navy crews (at least those with nothing to do) could and did watch incoming shells, and counted the seconds before impact. As far as "speed" goes, that's not the issue -- if you're worried about the ability to react to enemy fire, then what matters is the time it takes to alter course. That's a different animal than speed.

Besides, changing course was a viable tactic -- ships would often steer towards the last shell splashes to throw off enemy rangefinders.

I say we let the Luminiferous Aether be our magic doohickey.

Yup.

The problem, of course, is that using the "Luminiferous Aether" doesn't solve anything. Whose version of the aether is "real"? What exactly does it do?

There wasn't/isn't exactly unanimity in aether theory...

I want to write some stories and it would help to know this stuff.  If anyone could point me to the technical data it would be greatly appreciated.

There is no technical data to point you towards.

In response to a question on how fast a Starfury travels, JMS (creator of Bab5) once replied, "It travels at the speed of the plot." In other words, things work however they need to work in order to tell the story -- or in this case, in order for the game to work.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

What is the time scale per turn?  Each inch equals what distance?  Each turn represents how much time?

The answers to these questions are indeterminate, and likely to remain so.

You would use tracers to track and adjust your fire.
...
But Aether Torpedoes would still look like photon torpedoes...sorry
...
They end up as red smears on the front bulkhead!
...
Aether Sails and propellors probably would not be enough to stabilize a ship while firing.
...
So recoilles rifles for guns?  If so the pictures you've done are really off.

Assumptions, all.

Who's to say tracers "would be used"? It's one option, sure ... but not the only option. If we're going to get technical, with the only reference being the blackness of space behind the target, how exactly are you to tell how far off your tracer round was? Or in what direction? Unless the round passes directly in front of the target (or vice versa) you have absolutely no reference point. On the other hand, as you reference, shell splashes were used at sea -- and these had the effect of "telegraphing" your shots, so I'm not sure the drawback you propose is that much of a negative.

Torpedoes could look like photon torpedoes; then again, they might not.

Why would the crew end up as red smears? Two reasons why this isn't a problem: (1) a ship can't slow down faster than it can accelerate, and (2) the indeterminate scale means we don't know exactly how many G's are being pulled (see? it can be helpful not to be tied to specific numbers. smile)

I could say, "Aether Sails and propellors probably would be enough to stabilize a ship while firing", and be as "correct" as you are when you say they probably would NOT be enough.

I'm not trying to squelch discussion, or poo-poo your ideas; but when things are thrown around as "this is the way things HAVE to be", I feel the need to step in and point out that we are, after all, playing make-believe.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

As far as time was concerned I figured we were using parsecs (see original Star Wars).  Only a bubblehead.  big_smile

Yeah, got the joke.... Let us not speak of the mis-use of the term 'micron' in the original BSG...:roll:


CPTCole wrote:

What is the time scale per turn?  Each inch equals what distance?  Each turn represents how much time?   :roll:

As Dan said - indeterminant. I suspected he'd say that, but didn't want to put words in his mouth.

Giving such locks in too many things, and has a lot of potential to make the game un-fun. The only guys that like such pedantic detail in my experience are guys like you and me....and we're honesty in the minority.

A suspension of belief is certainly needed in the game. It's not a treatise on Aetheric physics. While some of your observations are certainly true if this were the real world, it's not the real world - it's for a bit of fun.


CPTCole wrote:

You would use tracers to track and adjust your fire.  At sea you can watch your shells as they hit the water to adjust fire..."in space no one can see your steam"  lol So you'd use tracers to adjust fire.  Because visually tracking your rounds beyond a mile would be just about impossible.

Mmm....if you look at the rules, does this make a difference?

We also have 'star shells', IIRC....



CPTCole wrote:

And mechanical ballistic computers were rare as hen's teeth (entire ships were built around them). But, the tracers would have the effect of telegraphing your shots.

I don't see that as a problem.


CPTCole wrote:

With a velocity of 1000 yds/sec a battlewagon shell would be visibly on the way for up to 20 seconds at 10 nautical miles.  Plenty of time to shift a ship enough for the rounds to miss.  I know you are a submariner so I'll cut you some slack.   lol

True, but let's assume that such is assumed in the 'to hit' mechanics...

What's the big deal about me being a former submariner?


CPTCole wrote:

Which is why I am asking about speed of the ships...are they too ponderous to dodge

Emphatically (well, as far as I can adjudicate it) barely....


CPTCole wrote:

or are they moving so fast it's not an issue?  I get it.  It's dreadnaughts in space so no dodging battleships.  8-) No Trek tech got it.  So no beam of light from the gunfire.  But Aether Torpedoes would still look like photon torpedoes...sorry.  As the torpedo propulsion system interacts with the Aether they'll give off light as a byproduct (as someone noted would happen with the Aether sails on ships--in reference to the different countries having different colored sails  :ugeek:  ).

Yes, that was something I did on purpose, sails DO glow....I don't recall it being said that torpedoes had sails.

Torpedoes with rockets vs little props

...is what I said...


CPTCole wrote:

I wasn't clear on explaining the inertial sump thing.  If we have a ship going to Mars or the Moon for that matter, higher velocities are acheivable using the rules as written.  The only thing that interacts with the Aether is the sails and propellors...they are the only thing charged per your description.  So if a ship travelling at 100 or 1000 inches per turn allows the momentum rules to bring it to a stop what would the end result for the crew be (go from 100 inches to 50 inches or from 1000 inches to 500 inches in one turn)?  They end up as red smears on the front bulkhead!   :shock:

Dan....

cricket wrote:

a ship can't slow down faster than it can accelerate

...no red smears - red shirts - maybe....


CPTCole wrote:

Or the front end of the ship would tear off...funny but not to the admiral that has to explain it to his government.  lol  An inertial sump would act to compensate for changes in inertia for the crew and ship (and internal gear--"I say better stop loading the 500lb shell in the gun"--"why?"--ship maneuvers--gun bunny squished like bug--"That's why." Ok this maybe an exageration but ships and crews would have to be a lot more constrained, or at least cognizant of their situation than they generally are on the ground).  Without gravity all sorts of things become very difficult...and maybe just out and out impossible with straight 1900's tech.  That's why I am proposing Aether Tech along with 1900's tech.  :ugeek:

Well, you have to remember - that litle infusion of 'Martian Invader' tech....which we have not, as yet, outlined in total.


CPTCole wrote:

Aether Sails and propellors probably would not be enough to stabilize a ship while firing.  They would just act as pivot points, or would add increased strain on the rest of the ship as it flexed at said pivot point.  So you'd probably need something that stabilized the entire ship.  This would be critical during maneuvering as well as during firing.

<shrug> disagree - and besides - it's just a game. It can work 'by definition'....without making sense...just like many things in the Navy.


CPTCole wrote:

I am no Naval architect, but I have been to sea in a typhoon three times and spent 4 years at sea.  So I have a pretty good idea about how maneuvering and weather, effects a crew and equipment. (Saw the cow fly across the galley one time  lol ) That would just be magnified by operating in a zero g environment.

Actually, I don't think that the two are that close...

CPTCole wrote:

So recoilles rifles for guns?  If so the pictures you've done are really off.  Unless you want them to vent inside the ship?  :oops:

Nope, they're not bazookas....

Re: Technical Stuff?

That's right I am a grognard...so sue me.  lol  I don't have a problem with you being a former submariner  big_smile

OK suspension of disbelief fully engaged.  8-)

But, this discussion has made me go back and read the movement rules yet one more time.  :idea:  On page 11 of the original rules when a ship's momentum is greater than the thrust rating of the ship the ship must move at least the difference.  But I wasn't meaning that particular situation.  I was looking strictly at the momentum rules.  If a ship travelling at a high velocity, loses it's engines, or kills it's engines to slow down wouldn't it, according to the momentum rules go from say a 100 inch move to a 50 inch move in one turn?

Having lived in North Central Texas for much of my life (born there)...I do agree that pillbugs may not wheel.  They locomote in a strictly columnar fashion. 

Dugan when was the last time you saw a horned toad?  And I don't mean the TCU mascot.

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

I was looking strictly at the momentum rules.  If a ship travelling at a high velocity, loses it's engines, or kills it's engines to slow down wouldn't it, according to the momentum rules go from say a 100 inch move to a 50 inch move in one turn?

Yes, that is correct. I hadn't really thought about what that means at such high speeds -- in the game, you're almost never going faster than 10"/turn.

Having lived in North Central Texas for much of my life (born there)...I do agree that pillbugs may not wheel.  They locomote in a strictly columnar fashion.

Indeed. Which is really weird for a creature that can turn itself into a wheel... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

OK suspension of disbelief fully engaged.  8-)

Also, I am not trying to keep people from talking about the "technical" aspects of Iron Stars -- quite the contrary, in fact.

My concern is that too MUCH technical detail will make the background LESS accessible. Right now, we all can look at the Iron Stars universe and kinda "fill in the blanks" for ourselves. I'd like to be able to keep that aspect, even if some of the technical specs are fleshed out.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

That's right I am a grognard...so sue me.  lol  I don't have a problem with you being a former submariner  big_smile

I'm too lazy to be a grognard in the old mold. Once, you HAD to be one to be a gamer - but nowadays there's just too much stuff out there that's fun to play that doesn't require knowing how many legions Rome had in Germania, or the odds of rolling 4 ones in a 4D6 spread. It helps when you DESIGN a game, though....
smile

Just curious about the submariner comments, I usually don't identify myself as such (though I do mention it often enough, I suppose) as a primary constituent of my outlook. The experience did form certain facets of who I am....


CPTCole wrote:

OK suspension of disbelief fully engaged.  8-)

But, this discussion has made me go back and read the movement rules yet one more time.  :idea:  On page 11 of the original rules when a ship's momentum is greater than the thrust rating of the ship the ship must move at least the difference.  But I wasn't meaning that particular situation.  I was looking strictly at the momentum rules.  If a ship travelling at a high velocity, loses it's engines, or kills it's engines to slow down wouldn't it, according to the momentum rules go from say a 100 inch move to a 50 inch move in one turn?

Hmm... that does seem problematic for sudden decceleration from really high speeds - faster than the usual 'Game Maximum' speed, I'm guessing. That sounds like a problem for Dan - I'm just the Art guy that occasionally has a flash of an idea.

Perhaps the decceleration is less of an increment of current speed the faster one goes, but doesn't appear at speeds that one encounters in the game? Something logrhythmic, perhaps?
smile

CPTCole wrote:

Having lived in North Central Texas for much of my life (born there)...I do agree that pillbugs may not wheel.  They locomote in a strictly columnar fashion.

Well, I actually had to look up 'pillbug', when I'd run across the term for the hundredth time or so - we called them 'doodlebugs' when I was a kid.

CPTCole wrote:

Dugan when was the last time you saw a horned toad?  And I don't mean the TCU mascot.

A few years - I wonder if it's more because I'm not a curious litle kid anymore, digging around under leaves and such.

The fire ants seem to have killed off the big red ants I remember as a kid, too....

Re: Technical Stuff?

Ant Lions, Doodlebugs and Horned Toads.  That's Texas.  I believe you are right about the fire ants killing off the red ants. 

I lived in Stephenville till about 1998.  And I didn't see any Horned Toads there then.  I remember when I was a kid in the 70's seeing them all the time.

I don't have any issues with you being a submariner...just giving you a hard time.  I was a tin can sailor for awhile, but I more strongly identify with the Army.  I was medically discharged from the Army in 2005 as a Captain.  I liked the Navy...I just didn't like spending months at a time at sea.  So I got out went to Tarleton in Stephenville and got a commission.  Leading troops has been the greatest privledge and pleasure I have known professionally.

I agree with the comments about old school games.  I don't know if its that I got older.  Have less time. Or because I have kids.  Or all of the above, but I don't like complicated anymore.

That's why I like Ironstars...and I must admit I am beginning to spend a little time learning Starmada as well tongue

Re: Technical Stuff?

CPTCole wrote:

Ant Lions, Doodlebugs and Horned Toads.  That's Texas.  I believe you are right about the fire ants killing off the red ants. 

I lived in Stephenville till about 1998.  And I didn't see any Horned Toads there then.  I remember when I was a kid in the 70's seeing them all the time.

I remember being in Dallas as a toddler, Euless until 1969 (watched the moon landing right after we turned in the moving van, everyone was sitting on moving boxes), 1974 was a rocky year (parents divorced), Dad's been up in Keller since '75.
Navy from '78-88 - just shy of ten years.

If you go west, out where it's drier, you'll see red ants and horned toads.


CPTCole wrote:

I don't have any issues with you being a submariner...just giving you a hard time.  I was a tin can sailor for awhile, but I more strongly identify with the Army.  I was medically discharged from the Army in 2005 as a Captain.  I liked the Navy...I just didn't like spending months at a time at sea.  So I got out went to Tarleton in Stephenville and got a commission.  Leading troops has been the greatest privledge and pleasure I have known professionally.

While I have a lot of respect for those in the armed forces, I'm not suited for it. I'm not especially robust, physcially. I was doing 85-105 hours a week for the 5 years I was aboard Omaha. If that's the kind of hours I'd of had to do anywhere else in the military, then I've given about as much as I can. I'd of stayed in if I could have done something else, but loosing 'Nuke' status (through some sort of misbehaviour on my part) would've been a black mark on my record that I would not put up with, and the Navy would not let me out any other way.

I was just bloody tired when I got my shore duty, and even after three years of duty that was somewhat lighter, the prospect of 5 more years of that kind of work load more or less drove me to simply leave when my time was up.


CPTCole wrote:

I agree with the comments about old school games.  I don't know if its that I got older.  Have less time. Or because I have kids.  Or all of the above, but I don't like complicated anymore.

That's why I like Ironstars...and I must admit I am beginning to spend a little time learning Starmada as well tongue

Yeah, pretty much the same with me.

At one point, I was really into the details and fidlly bits - now all that crap just gets in the way.