Topic: Finally had a game...

Well, okay. I wasn't playing directly. I was simply moderating the game for the others in the group.
Had a small game using the ISS book, one side had Arcturans the other Negali. The Negali had a Cruiser and two frigates, the Arcturans had a Cruiser and two destroyers. Around 450 points or so.
Both sides pretty much flew directly at each other, with a little bit of manuever. After a few turns combat ensued. One of the Arcturan destroyers had its weapons stripped by the Negali and one of the Negali frigates was stripped of all goods as well. There was a surprising lack of hull damage. The other Negali frigate was removed from existance from a good solid shot from the Arcturan cruiser. All remaining Negali ships declared a hyperjump, despite the fact that the Cruiser was still in tip top shape. The following three turns saw the Negali frigate accelerate away at top speed (His speed was 16, and the following turn, if the hyperjump wasn't active yet, would have been 24...) while the other Negali ship remembered he could pivot around and proceeded to open fire on the remaining Arcturan ships. However, he was unable to destroy either of the two remaining ships, despite hitting with both of his Shock Beams on two of the turns, before his drive engaged. The game ended with a Pyrric Arcturan victory. All Negalise ships retreated, leaving the field to the Arcturans. However, the Arcturan ships were left with no weapons, no shields, little engines and one or two boxes of hull. Had the Negali cruiser cancelled his hyperjump, it would have won.

Lessons learned:
1- Booking around at top speed not always the best option. High speed to engage, and then slow down for manuevers seem to be best at this point.
2- People were a little thrown of by P+S or S+P manuevering, rather than just a single turn. "Why is it that I can do that and it only requires a thrust of three, but just a single turn requires a thrust of 7?" It was a constant reminder of, "It's because you aren't changing your direction of travel with that maneuver."
3- The Negalise cruiser was a bit much. Shields 5 with the Shock Beams of doom meant that the poor Arcturan slow firing and lower ACC guns were outmatched and unable to do much in the way of damage. Piercing weapons with more than 1 IMP that deal multiple dice of damage are fairly sick. One successful shot pretty much stripped both ships of equipment. Had the game continued, I have no doubt in my mind that the Negalise ship would have destroyed the other two without sustaining any serious damage itself.

Still everyone seemed to enjoy the game. I think next time I might introduce carriers to them.

Re: Finally had a game...

I had an online match using the  Negali they are very powerful in the game. I don't think that they can lose vs almost anyone else in the book.

Re: Finally had a game...

The Kalaedinese can give them a run for their money I'm willing to bet, even one of those anti proton beams piercing could deal quite a bit of damage, hopefully knocking down the shields. And the Kalaedinese also use pretty high shield levels.
But yeah, none of the other empires stand a chance, which is fitting I suppose, since the book does mention that their technology is more advanced than the others (minus said Kalaedinese).

Re: Finally had a game...

I'd be interested to see some numbers on VP totals for games involving the Negali... and to hear some opinions on why they seem "unbalanced". This is news to me.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Finally had a game...

Well, looking at the game I ran:

We had three ships per side -
Arcturans - 2 x Hayabusa Destroyers, 1 x Kyouwa Cruiser. A total of 476 points.
Negali - 2 x Yrithar Frigates, 1 x Tabercji Cruiser. A total of 444 points.

The only reason the Arcturans won was that the Negali Cruiser didn't cancel hyperdrive. I think I forgot to tell him that he could cancel it. My bad. Had he not, the situation of the Arcturans:
1 Destroyer gone, 1 stripped of all waepons and shields with just three points of hull left. The cruiser stripped of all heavy weapons, shields and only one point of hull left. The Negali ship? Missing one hull and that was from a forced hyperjump that failed. Of the two Frigates, one jump away safely, the other got kaboomed by a Particle Cannon alpha-strike.

Going with a comparison of capabilities:
Looking at it, balanced. We have the Tabercji vs a Kyouwa and a Hayabusa. The points are slightly in favor of the Arcturans.
We'll assume both ships centerline at range 7.

The Arcturans fire all Particle Cannons. That'll be a total of six. On average, half of them will hit, roughly. That gives six dice for impacts. Against a shield value of five, one impact will make it in, for a rough total of four damage to the Negali Cruiser, with a delay before they can fire those guns again.

Looking at the other side of the fence, the Negali ship: Can risk an all or nothing shot on a 4+. But for sake of math, we'll assume fired separately (Can fire-linked fire independently at the same ship?) Again, one hit, one miss. Here we have three dice for impact, with all dice needing a 3 or better to bump shields thanks to piercing. That's two dice that the odds say will bump through. Now we have eight dice for damage. Granted, dealing with Arcturans, one out of every six shots will be dropped, thanks to Armor Plating. So roughly about seven damage and the Negali can fire again next turn with the same weapon. Now, let's throw in their second set of heavy weapons. (I consider any weapon that can deal more than two damage in a single volley, whether based on ROF, IMP, DMG or traits as a heavy weapon.) Four more shots, half of which will hit, for two chances to bump shields. Half those will make it in, adding another two damage onto the Arcturan vessel.

The Negali ship is hurt, but the Arcturan vessel is nearly crippled. And that was assuming that the Negali ship would have fired upon the Arcturans cruiser. Firing at the destroyer is even worse, as five out of six shots would pierced shields rather than four. On top of that, the Negali vessel will be capable of firing again the following turn, whereas the Arcturan will only have their short ranged weaponry to fire.

Oh and any thoughts of, well the Negali ship has a narrow fire arc with the big guns, I'll remind you that they have overthrusters.

Re: Finally had a game...

cricket wrote:

I'd be interested to see some numbers on VP totals for games involving the Negali... and to hear some opinions on why they seem "unbalanced". This is news to me.

They have Lv. 4-5 Shields on virtually all their ships, and almost no ships in the game have Piercing, meaning landing a shot on them is extremely difficult. Their main guns are heavier than the main guns i use on the ships i design personally, and the ACAC they have is also quite impressive, so the use of fighters against them is also very limited. The Kalaedinese might be able to go toe to toe with them, but the human forces seem like they would be completely trashed in an even fight.

Re: Finally had a game...

You have to roll one dice for to hit for all Fire-Linked weapons in a single battery that are targetting the same ship. In that case, the cruiser is gutted completely, I'm guessing (haven't looked at the ISS ships for a while)

Re: Finally had a game...

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

You have to roll one dice for to hit for all Fire-Linked weapons in a single battery that are targetting the same ship. In that case, the cruiser is gutted completely, I'm guessing (haven't looked at the ISS ships for a while)

Okay, so once Fire-linked is selected as a trait for a weapon system, it's an all or nothing shot. Got it.

So yeah, given that, over two turns, the damage from the Arcturans stays the same and the Negali has six dice impacting, four through. Sixteen dice for damage, rounding up, three are absorbed by armored hull, 13 through... The ship might survive (Odds are against scoring enough hull hits with only 2/5 striking hull...) but chances are the weapon systems are gutted, the shields are gone and possibly the engines are too. Next turn. Baboom!

Now, I do know that dice are the ultimate equalizer in this case. The Negali might miss every single 4+ to hit... or when he rolls damage, finds himself rolling an inordinate number of 1's... Or the poor Arcturan might see everything hit and roll 3's and 5's for damage.

That said, I'll have to try this out again - this time with the sides having more balanced point values. (The cruiser on the Negali side was more than half the point value of the game.)

Re: Finally had a game...

PSYCO829 wrote:

They have Lv. 4-5 Shields on virtually all their ships, and almost no ships in the game have Piercing, meaning landing a shot on them is extremely difficult. Their main guns are heavier than the main guns i use on the ships i design personally, and the ACAC they have is also quite impressive, so the use of fighters against them is also very limited. The Kalaedinese might be able to go toe to toe with them, but the human forces seem like they would be completely trashed in an even fight.

Apologies if it is bad form to necro this thread, but I can confirm that Negali are more than a match for anything in the ISS.  I've fought them in my last four Starmada battles, losing very badly each time.  In one loss, they scored 10x as many victory points as me playing Imperials/S'ssk.

Negali have decent speed, great shields, and incredible weapons.  If anyone has suggestions on counter designs, I'd be open to hearing them.  I've no idea how to begin, as they seem to have no apparent weakness (I'd say it was long-range, if their Shock Cannons were RNG 15).

Re: Finally had a game...

Against what is in that book it's hard to beat the  Negali.

Starmada can be very Rock Paper Scissors. From the games I have played, weapons with ammo, long range weapons (longer then your opponent), shields of 5, Piercing weapons 2+  seem to unbalance the game too. There always options that you can use to mitigate these advantages but you have to know what you are going up against, if don't you may decimate or get decimated.

It's hard not have a Rock Paper Scissors type games when you have so many options, but if everyone is on the same playing field without huge advantages or disadvantages then you will get closer games.

Perhaps before players design their ships you will have to let you opponent know what traits you will be using with your fleets. Then the players can pick two more traits so they can counter their opponents traits. Just a thought.     

I think if you took out the Negali you would have a more evenly matched games.

Re: Finally had a game...

I have not-so-fond memories of getting trashed as Dai-Ken against Negali...  Overall I felt that H&C was better balanced than ISS.  The Grumm eviscerators were rough, but they were forward-firing only and they weren't the only thing on their ships...

I kind of like the notion of trait select and then counter-select.  That's what ends up happening in iterated games with no restrictions on shipbuilding anyways...  This just encapsulates it so it occurs in each game, and you have to do less predictive legwork between games because you know more-or-less what they're bringing.  It could be exploited, though, if you choose a central / imbalancing trait as one of your 'counters', even if you're not really bringing it as a counter, and thereby keep it unknown to your opponent.  Kind of an ass move, but...  I'm more for "Here's a bag of random traits, now build a fleet with it" styles of balancing.  The odds of getting a really good combination are much reduced, and you're more likely to see some of the quirkier traits actually fielded.

Re: Finally had a game...

Random traits sounds like a cool idea. Can't get exploited, but might get lucky.