Re: Quantum Legions

MadSeason wrote:

As long as we don't overlook color as an excellent device for many players.

Color can have meaning, but at the expense of a small fraction of an already small audience?

Hmmm. bad business if you ask me.

[edit] not to mention how really irritating that is to myself and any other colorblind people. that's like saying we don't need to follow the ADA rules on ramps and entrances because most people will be able to get in our building

Think about what you're saying for a minute before you say it[/rant off]

Re: Quantum Legions

jimbeau wrote:
MadSeason wrote:

As long as we don't overlook color as an excellent device for many players.

Color can have meaning, but at the expense of a small fraction of an already small audience?

Hmmm. bad business if you ask me.

[edit] not to mention how really irritating that is to myself and any other colorblind people. that's like saying we don't need to follow the ADA rules on ramps and entrances because most people will be able to get in our building

Think about what you're saying for a minute before you say it[/rant off]

I understand you are sensitive to the issue but if you go back and look at what I said and meant I think you will see that I did think carefully about what I wrote. All I was saying was that color should be one of the ways in which counters are distinguished -- and then I highlighted this by pointing out examples that effectively combine color with differentiating symbols/icons so that those who are colorblind are not left out. I clearly was not saying that we should ignore your demographic or the challenges it poses.

Re: Quantum Legions

I've made my stance clear: color is an important part of any design project, and will continue to be so. Having said that, I am well aware via my relationship with Jim that color cannot be (solely) determinative.

I  think it best we close this part of the discussion and move on to other things.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Quantum Legions

cricket wrote:

I've made my stance clear: color is an important part of any design project, and will continue to be so. Having said that, I am well aware via my relationship with Jim that color cannot be (solely) determinative.

I  think it best we close this part of the discussion and move on to other things.

Especially since we all agree!  smile

Re: Quantum Legions

Maybe the squad leader unit images aren't as distinctive as I remember... see here (Germans are on top, Americans on the bottom. They are distinctive silhouettes but maybe not distinctive enough at a glance.)

Panzer Grenadier games go one step better. The unit icons for infantry are distinct but they also have national or unit badges above the icon, again in addition to different colors. They even have unit type symbols crammed on those counters.  lol An Italian unit. An Australian unit. German naval infantry.

Combat Commander relies a little too much on color, IMO. The infantry depictions are distinctive but not dramatically so (similar to Squad Leader). See here. They do have national ID icons over which the infantry are superimposed (from left to right: American Star, Soviet Star, German Cross). But are they visible enough? Not sure...

Panzer Leader relied entirely on color... which is no good.

Re: Quantum Legions

MadSeason wrote:

Panzer Grenadier games go one step better. The unit icons for infantry are distinct but they also have national or unit badges above the icon, again in addition to different colors. They even have unit type symbols crammed on those counters.

I don't think I've made any secret of my admiration for Avalanche Press' graphic design. Those counters are beautiful. So much information packed in there, but you'd never call them "cluttered".

The problem with "national" insignia in a sci-fi setting is that someone has to come up with them... i.e. there's no historical reference to draw upon.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Quantum Legions

Well, now I know where you got that example, Dan...
smile

...hmmm, pondering lamp is lit.

Re: Quantum Legions

cricket wrote:

I don't think I've made any secret of my admiration for Avalanche Press' graphic design. Those counters are beautiful. So much information packed in there, but you'd never call them "cluttered".

The problem with "national" insignia in a sci-fi setting is that someone has to come up with them... i.e. there's no historical reference to draw upon.

Agreed, avalanche press is top of the line for simple, yet information-filled designs.

One option would be to use current insignia and create a background around why the US Flag has a big red dot in it (Cause we merged with Japan, of course, in 2865)

Re: Quantum Legions

jimbeau wrote:

One option would be to use current insignia and create a background around why the US Flag has a big red dot in it (Cause we merged with Japan, of course, in 2865)

What? No Sino-American Alliance?

How can I be one o' dem innapendents without it?

...

Sorry.

Was Quantum Legions intended to be a game with a background and modularity like Squad Leader, or was it intended to be fully generic and modular to fit any background?

Re: Quantum Legions

Is this getting anywhere? I want something else than Wardog, perhaps this is it?

Re: Quantum Legions

Erik M wrote:

Is this getting anywhere? I want something else than Wardog, perhaps this is it?

Yes, it's getting somewhere.

Yes, it is something else than Wardogs -- two completely different games... but whether it's what you want depends on, well, what you want...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Quantum Legions

cricket wrote:
Erik M wrote:

Is this getting anywhere? I want something else than Wardog, perhaps this is it?

Yes, it's getting somewhere.
Yes, it is something else than Wardogs -- two completely different games... but whether it's what you want depends on, well, what you want...

Heh heh...
Very nice answer.
Vague, somewhat cryptic, and *almost* totally uninformative.  wink

Re: Quantum Legions

Yes, I have noticed.
As long as my two copies of SAE is on their way I don't mind cryptic. I'll get that game sorted while Daniel ponder other parts.

Re: Quantum Legions

[attachment=0]Trooper005_head.JPG[/attachment]

Re: Quantum Legions

This is by NO means reflective of certain recent discussions - here or via email....

That is all.

Re: Quantum Legions

I really like the idea of a SF tactical game with abstract grafics in the way ogre or similar games does it. The way Dan thinks with his "minimalistic" style suits wonderful to me. So possibly I can contribute one or another idea to it.

For example here is the counter layout of an older ame from Mayfair. "Hammer-Slammers" which theme is about high tech mercs vs. conventional ground troops on exotic planets.

The above are the Hover troops and below are conventional units.

Possibly Dan could tell us something about the background of his quantum legion idea? I think the grafical style of map and counters should represent the theme of a game to some extent.

Some elements I would like in quantum legion are:

-simple to grasp, but difficult to master ruleset (not more complicated than lets say SJGs ogre - or even simpler)
-coloured and beautiful grafical style for map, counters and game tables.
-Big counters which are easy to hold and stack (how about standup counters?)
-modular rules - easy to modify ruleset for further add-ons from MJ12 and user-made mods/units
-exotic terrain rules and rules for different gravity/athmospheres
-supply options? (I dont know about the scale of the game, so this is just a guess)

Re: Quantum Legions

I like the map very much. However, in my opinion, the counters have got to be absolutely beautiful or we'll lose people.

I wonder if tiny plastic minis would be cool, like Memoir 44?

(expensive, yes, but cool, eh?)

Re: Quantum Legions

jimbeau wrote:

I like the map very much. However, in my opinion, the counters have got to be absolutely beautiful or we'll lose people.

I wonder if tiny plastic minis would be cool, like Memoir 44?

(expensive, yes, but cool, eh?)


Plastik minis would be cool but I doubt that this is a feasible idea. They have disadvantages too:

-high production costs and thus a big financial risk
-dan has to find someone who is able to sculpt them
-the game has to be sold as box (no pdf)
-big hexes or you cannot stack units
-you cannot depict game stats on them

I am a big A&A fan and I really like those minis, but IMO this is a level too risky for a such a small company like MJ12. (except Dan is quite wealthy and is willing to take the risk - which I of course dont know lol )

Re: Quantum Legions

jimbeau wrote:

I like the map very much. However, in my opinion, the counters have got to be absolutely beautiful or we'll lose people.

I wonder if tiny plastic minis would be cool, like Memoir 44?

(expensive, yes, but cool, eh?)

Yeah, cool.....We're working on the 'absolutely beautiful' part. The trooper above did not make the first cut....
smile

I'd be working on that, but my computer's network connectivity dissappeared, so I'm taking a break from working on THAT.

Ironic, yes Jim? smile

Re: Quantum Legions

Okay, since I killed all discussion, here's something pretty to look at.....[attachment=0]Trooper_001H_b.jpg[/attachment]

..yeah, there were a LOT of iterations to get here. The other units - not so much.  smile

Re: Quantum Legions

I like it, but how does it move?

Re: Quantum Legions

It moonwalks nicely....

Re: Quantum Legions

So, do the counters look better with a "paint job" or as a solid black silhouette?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Quantum Legions

They look really cool with the paint jobs Dan. But I think legibility-wise the black silhouette is easier to register.

Re: Quantum Legions

I'm thinking a full color 3D illustration for the book, Black(gray, white - maybe faction-based coloring) Silhouettes for the counters.