Topic: Loophole hunters

Greetings, all, I'm new to the forums, although I've been a wargamer since 1980...

Can anyone give helpful suggestions regarding this problem:

The group I game with has discovered that cheap ships with a massive amount of cheap weapons in limited arcs always win because of the massive amount of dice they roll.  For instance, they will build ships with between 30 and 60 ROF 1, 4+, IMP 1, DMG 1 weapons (maybe with range-based ROF or inverted range mods but usually ignoring traits) in the G or AB arcs and sit back at their end of the board and hammer the opponent at maximum range, counting on the odds to get sufficient hits, which pretty much always works when you are using that many dice.  It has rendered the game virtually unplayable, as the only thing anyone has been able to do is duplicate the tactic and count on lucky dice to win.

The root of the problem seems to be that it is too expensive to build weapons that are individually effective enough to counter this concept because it boils down to the number of dice you get to roll.  We are trying to develop some measures to eliminate this annoying tactic, but so far, anything that would work is too drastic and complicated and no one can agree.

Thanks from a frustrated fleet admiral who's tired of being "Rhozhesvenskyed" so-to-speak.

Re: Loophole hunters

Some suggestions spring to mind:

1) High-IMP and -DMG weapons are cheaper than multiple 1/1/1 weapons, but on average let you roll the same number of dice.

2) Fighters!

3) Increase the number of ships on your side -- instead of smaller numbers of high-value ships, go with larger numbers of lower-value ones. This will force your opponent to concentrate his attacks, and potentially waste some of that firepower on "blow-through" or else split his attacks and thus increase the chances of poor dice rolls.

4) Fighters!

5) Floating game board. Makes it much more difficult to adopt the "sit in the corner of the map and blast away" tactic.

5) Did I mention fighters? smile

One thing that came up during discussions on the Admiralty Edition was the possibility of "weighting" the cost of firing arcs based on their position: e.g. A/B arcs would cost 1.5; C/D arcs cost 1.0; and E/F arcs cost 0.5. I rejected this at the time, but maybe it's something to consider...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Loophole hunters

Stealth and being faster are good counters to it, if you maneuver yourself to 21 away from them, then speed up and rush, they get maybe 1-2 turns of long range fire on you before you're in their face. And look at the cost of range 30 weapons, those handful of bombardments will not make up for the volume of fire you can get for the same cost at close range with smaller range brackets. Cloaking with faster ships works as well, infact you can try to remain cloaked for an additional turn (free rush if it works, and being harder to hit if it doesn't). Deal with these ships in the same way you would deal with a sniper, by getting in its face and making all the advantages of its range superiority absolute moot. And as Cricket pointed out, fighters fighters fighters.

On a side note Cricket, I'm not sure floating board would be a good idea, the last thing this poor fellow needs is his enemies making all his weapons EF and L arc, facing away, and flying away and firing his butt lasers while Goji struggles to close the range gap. With the map the current way it is, his opponent is stuck in the corner with nowhere to run.

Re: Loophole hunters

The reasons I mention floating game board:

1) If the opponent is facing towards you (forward-firing weapons), you can rush him and even fly past to attack his rear (remember vector movement lets you accelerate very quickly if need be).

2) If the opponent is facing away from you (aft-firing weapons), and moves away from you to keep the range open, you can let him go. Not the ideal resolution, but at least it makes the game as devoid of fun for him as it is for you. smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Loophole hunters

Even better than fighters, is using strikers.  These are much cheeper and while you are charging at the horde, these weapons are also doing the same.  Have them in flights of four.  Make sure to put level one shields on them because these cause one sixth of the hits on them to bounce off while not costing one sixth more.  All of my drones (Strikers)  have level one shields.
[We rarely use fighters down here, because they get shot down so easily, which makes them not too cost effective.]
Also, we have reserved any weapons that shoot farther than 18 to be for bases only.  Remember that weapons that shoot farther than 18 hexes are OPTIONAL. 8-)
Just do what we did:  Shipboard weapons in your games have a maximum range of 18. Period.
When you close, if there is still a horde with range 18 weapons, make sure you are close to a hex line/firing arc line to make it more difficult for single arc weapons to be able to keep firing.  Their player will have to guess which arc you will be in when you get to range 18 & Less... :geek:
Hordes Can be delt with effectively...

Re: Loophole hunters

This is probably obvious, but if you go the striker horde route, use the Launch Tubes option on the launching vessels.

Re: Loophole hunters

Gotta go with strikers or seekers (which are even cheaper than strikers) and if designed with the bomber trait, tend to ignore anything but their target. Have some smaller ships with high shields and stealth to act as incoming magnets while your missile carriers unload...

If he likes to cluster his ships, then use the AoE trait as well. A bit pricier up front, but that may be traded off by a force multiplier of more ships hit for the bang.

Re: Loophole hunters

go0gleplex wrote:

Gotta go with strikers or seekers (which are even cheaper than strikers) and if designed with the bomber trait, tend to ignore anything but their target.

That's an interesting point...  if a flight of seekers with Bomber intersects a group of opposing fighters, do the seekers not detonate early because they can't attack the fighters?  That sounds kind of useful.  Also, Area Effect is seconded; I find that combining Area Effect with Bomber/Interceptor can be fairly handy, Bomber for offense and Interceptor for defense.

But yeah, definitely Seekers/Strikers and Cloaking or Stealth.  If you decide to try to do him one better at sitting out at range, use Minimum Range on your weapons for a discount and add a couple of inexpensive close-range weapons in case they close, or use Minimum Range & No Range Modifiers for x1 but an increase in long-range effectiveness.

On a tangentially related note, are there rules (or the possibility of rules) for Stealth or Cloaking Fighters?  Those would help get fighters in under the torrential firepower...

Edit: These might work:

Hornet-Class Missile Corvette Flotilla
Ships: X
Engines: 8
Shields: 0

No weapons

Specials: Cloaking Device, Carrier (22) per ship

Each ship can carry one flight of missiles with the following stats:
Seeker, 4/flight, Speed 15, 4+ to hit, Defense 0, Bomber, Piercing, Continuing Damage

Unfortunately, the spreadsheet I use doesn't like to price flotillas with Carrier capacity and no weapons (says they cost 0.  Convenient...), but my calculations by hand show them to cost about 26.5 points per ship (it scales linearly with the number of ships regardless of whether they're actually in flotillas or operating alone).

Actually, in retrospect, that wouldn't work so well, since you can't launch when you have the Cloak up and missile launch happens during End phase, so you have to survive the shooting phase of the turn you drop cloak.  They're still fairly cheap for the amount of carrier capacity you get, though.

This also brings up an issue I've been having with flotilla space pricing; if a special ability (say, Stealth) takes up 10% of a ship's hull, and each ship in a flotilla has 40 SU, does putting Stealth on a flotilla ship take up 4 SU per ship?  I ask because the Shipyard treats flotilla ships as Hull 1 for this purpose, so 10% is 10 SU.

Re: Loophole hunters

Nomad wrote:

This also brings up an issue I've been having with flotilla space pricing; if a special ability (say, Stealth) takes up 10% of a ship's hull, and each ship in a flotilla has 40 SU, does putting Stealth on a flotilla ship take up 4 SU per ship?  I ask because the Shipyard treats flotilla ships as Hull 1 for this purpose, so 10% is 10 SU.

It takes up 10% of the available space, so it should be 4 SU/ship.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Loophole hunters

Nomad wrote:

This also brings up an issue I've been having with flotilla space pricing; if a special ability (say, Stealth) takes up 10% of a ship's hull, and each ship in a flotilla has 40 SU, does putting Stealth on a flotilla ship take up 4 SU per ship?  I ask because the Shipyard treats flotilla ships as Hull 1 for this purpose, so 10% is 10 SU.

Not a loophole, My mistake, Template sheet cell AR98. :oops:
Change to:
=IF($N$6="Yes";40;ROUNDUP((($AM$5^1.3)*100)*IF($G$6="Yes";1.2;1);0))

I have fixed this in v2E19, will upload.
Cor, the number of times I ask for any errors found....................and I have to keep an eye on all of the threads sad

Paul

Re: Loophole hunters

Thanks, all!  Happy hunting!

Re: Loophole hunters

How about a Planet or moon or even black hole?
Terrain adds the need to maneuver into the game.

I still favor stealth or cloaking to deal with snipers though, drones/bombers might work once but they aren't that hard to counter.

Poliorcetes

Re: Loophole hunters

BeowulfJB wrote:

Just do what we did:  Shipboard weapons in your games have a maximum range of 18. Period.

The more you curtail weapon ranges, the more interesting maneuver becomes. We've had some very fun games with the upper limit at 9.

You might try stacking up the defenses on your superdreadnoughts. 5 shields, 20 hull, armor, countermeasures, regeneration, stealth ... sure, they'll get some hits on you, but a lot of their firepower will be wasted.

If the enemy takes the "thousand points of light" strategy to an extreme, area effect weapons are your friend. If they dare not be adjacent, a large fleet must be spread over many hexes. You'll be able to attack the fringe of this fleet without being in range of all of it.

Oh, and certainly use the explosion rule.

Re: Loophole hunters

mundungus wrote:
BeowulfJB wrote:

Just do what we did:  Shipboard weapons in your games have a maximum range of 18. Period.

The more you curtail weapon ranges, the more interesting maneuver becomes. We've had some very fun games with the upper limit at 9.

You might try stacking up the defenses on your superdreadnoughts. 5 shields, 20 hull, armor, countermeasures, regeneration, stealth ... sure, they'll get some hits on you, but a lot of their firepower will be wasted.

If the enemy takes the "thousand points of light" strategy to an extreme, area effect weapons are your friend. If they dare not be adjacent, a large fleet must be spread over many hexes. You'll be able to attack the fringe of this fleet without being in range of all of it.

Oh, and certainly use the explosion rule.

I'll agree with everything he just said. Especially the bit about weapon ranges. We've had several excellent games with max ranges of 12.

Re: Loophole hunters

If the maximum range of weapons is nine or even twelve, speed 15 fighters and drones(strikers) will ravage your fleet and you will not even get a shot before they make their attack...
We have found 18 to work well...

Re: Loophole hunters

Blacklancer and I have not explicitly limited Flight speeds in spite of reducing max weapon range to 12. As it turns out, he fields flights with a speed of 8 and I have fielded strikers with a speed of 12. His flights are far more terrifying given their firepower and their ability to hang around after the first attack. But, I agree, that one way to skew things would be to create flights capable of attacking ships without any chance of shooting back and make that your main weapon.

Perhaps Blacklancer and I are too honorable for such pursuits.  :mrgreen:

Re: Loophole hunters

A good way to get around it might be make a rule that says anti fighter batteries fire before the fighters attack. That way anti fighter batteries aren't useless vs strikers and seekers, and don't start shooting down fighters when it could be "too little too late".

Re: Loophole hunters

PSYCO829 wrote:

A good way to get around it might be make a rule that says anti fighter batteries fire before the fighters attack. That way anti fighter batteries aren't useless vs strikers and seekers, and don't start shooting down fighters when it could be "too little too late".

I like that rule, especially if we make anti-fighter batteries more expensive in SUs.

Re: Loophole hunters

PSYCO829 wrote:

A good way to get around it might be make a rule that says anti fighter batteries fire before the fighters attack. That way anti fighter batteries aren't useless vs strikers and seekers, and don't start shooting down fighters when it could be "too little too late".

I've been pining for AFBs that shoot first and ask questions later for a while now. I have taken to adding point defense to all of my high priority and "sniper" type ships to do that job, as much as they can, but I would still rather "pay" for AFBs that could shoot down missiles/strikers/seekers whatever like "point defense" is typically depicted.
Erik
Edit: I think that the Trekmada Anti-Drone shooting is a step in the right direction...

Re: Loophole hunters

MadSeason wrote:

Blacklancer and I have not explicitly limited Flight speeds in spite of reducing max weapon range to 12. As it turns out, he fields flights with a speed of 8 and I have fielded strikers with a speed of 12. His flights are far more terrifying given their firepower and their ability to hang around after the first attack. But, I agree, that one way to skew things would be to create flights capable of attacking ships without any chance of shooting back and make that your main weapon.

Perhaps Blacklancer and I are too honorable for such pursuits.  :mrgreen:

I don't know that honor is the best word for it  wink  I have just seen way too many games of every stripe flat out ruined by munchkinization and min/maxing to the nth degree. I like to try to play ships that have warts if you will. Luckily, it would seem I have an opponent that feels similarly. My Terran Republic ships that I am using in the campaign against MadSeason were specifically designed to fight a foe that relies heavily on flotillas of disposable attrition craft. Pretty much the exact opposite of Mad's ships  yikes  However, if there is one truism in military history it is the fact that every  military is built to fight the last war. In the course of our fights both of our forces will (and have already) certainly evolve, but I won't play the "design game" in between each of our tactical games, it's just less fun for me personally. I guess that makes me weird.
Well, actually, I'm pretty sure that we're all weird in our way.
some of us just refuse to conform to certain norms of abnormality.
Did I just cause another tear in space/time?
Oh well.  :roll:
Erik

Re: Loophole hunters

Well, actually, I'm pretty sure that we're all weird in our way.

Except me.   wink

Have to agree would be good for AFBs to be some use, but that would disadvantage fighters/seekers/strikers further, which as they are an antidote to the dull sit there and shoot everything with lots of long range guns tactic, would be a shame.

Another way to tackle these issues is to contextualise the Starmada games - if they are part of a campaign that has objectives, such as bases or planets to capture, I don't see a problem.  As mentioned above, the tactic of sitting in the corner with lots of guns is a good one if you want to defend, and that's why defensive forces usually have a slight advantage.  If the scenarios force one side or another to attack, and allow forces that are imbalanced, the issue vanishes.  Its only a problem in one off fire fight scenarios where there are no goals.

How you generate these objectives - could be through a campaign system such as VBAM or something simpler, or you could add in an option that gives one side an objective to capture/destroy worth VPs - if destroyed/captured the attacker gets the VPs, otherwise the defender gets them.  All the defender would have to do is sit there.  The attacker could have maybe half the objective's VPs in extra ships.

Re: Loophole hunters

Another way to tackle these issues is to contextualise the Starmada games - if they are part of a campaign that has objectives, such as bases or planets to capture, I don't see a problem. As mentioned above, the tactic of sitting in the corner with lots of guns is a good one if you want to defend, and that's why defensive forces usually have a slight advantage. If the scenarios force one side or another to attack, and allow forces that are imbalanced, the issue vanishes. Its only a problem in one off fire fight scenarios where there are no goals.

This is my preferred method. I generally avoid "one-off" games of anything and vastly prefer campaign/scenario-based games.
Erik

Re: Loophole hunters

There is a very nice method of balancing things out in nearly every tabletop game you play. Tip came from an old White Dwarf issue I think regarding terrain: One player sets-up all the terrain then the other player chooses on which side of the table he wants to deploy his forces.

This method can also be extended to the forces itself. One player designs the forces and the other players choose first (roll dice to determine the order among them) after giving them some time to analyse the ships. The designed forces have to be sufficiently different. If this is still not working try to restrict key features for each faction. Faction A only builds hulls <6, Faction B cannot have Shields >3, Faction C uses only weapons with ranges <=12, Faction D has all Tech Levels -1 and so on.

If the factions are fun the designer may modify his creations for the next battle to adress weaknesses and no player may choose the same faction twice in a row. This technique can even create a healthy metagame where your pick is based on the picks other players took before you.

@EDIT: Another method often used with imbalanced scenarios in wargames is paired games: Players agree to always play two games, the second one with switched sides. In this way minmaxers have no choice but to be beaten by their own minmaxed fleet and will hopefully design balanced ships.

Re: Loophole hunters

Hi Goji - I'd be really interested to see some of the ships your opponents are fielding. Is there a chance you could post a couple of examples here for us?