Topic: Tactics and Composition

Hello all, I've just started playing Starmada recently and I'm feeling somewhat overwhelmed by the sheer number of options I have for developing my game.  There are probably a dozen other threads where stuff like this is discussed, but I thought it might be worthwhile to have one place where we could all discuss our individual preferences regarding ship design styles and tactics. 

Like I said before, I'm pretty new to Starmada but I have started developing a few theories and I would love to get some more experienced players feedback.

First off, I'm coming to the conclusion that a ship should have an "ideal engagement range" If you want to put a long-range sniper cannon type deal on your heavy cruiser, it seems a waste to fill up a lot of space with short range secondary guns too.  If you are playing a fleet game, there is no reason you can't completely forgo defensive armament and just squeeze in a load of the big offensive weapons, and then assign this sniper cruiser a close-in escort or two.  It applies in reverse as well.  If you design a shorter-range battering ram type ship, don't bother putting any long-range armament on it at all, squeeze in a truckload of carronades and just make sure the ship is fast enough to dictate the engagement range.

Well, I had a few other points I was going to hit, but I sort of droned on longer than I intended, and the whole purpose of this is to start a dialogue, so I will shut up and listen intently for someone else to pipe up.

Re: Tactics and Composition

Welcome!
All my ship's weapons have range 18.  The heavy weapons that are designed to destroy other ships have Starship Exclusive and other weapon traits.  The secondary weapons have no weapon traits, and are able be used to shoot down fighters, strikers, etc and can also shoot at other ships.  (The idea of having short range AA weapons to shoot down these is kinda silly IMHO).  All the Strikers I use on my DDGs have speed 15.  I don't use fighters because I think they are Not really cost effective, especially against a fleet like mine or the ones my nephew & friends play in south Florida.
Cheers

Re: Tactics and Composition

A few weapons with accuracy 3+ are more effective than more weapons with 4+. Add fire control into it and you rarely miss. Weapons with good pen-aids make short work of an enemy ship.

Re: Tactics and Composition

BeowulfJB wrote:

Welcome!
All my ship's weapons have range 18.  The heavy weapons that are designed to destroy other ships have Starship Exclusive and other weapon traits.  The secondary weapons have no weapon traits, and are able be used to shoot down fighters, strikers, etc and can also shoot at other ships.  (The idea of having short range AA weapons to shoot down these is kinda silly IMHO).  All the Strikers I use on my DDGs have speed 15.  I don't use fighters because I think they are Not really cost effective, especially against a fleet like mine or the ones my nephew & friends play in south Florida.
Cheers

The first few ships I made included some range 6 AA guns, but I agree that that is really too close to be really effective,  I've been using range 12 because I can still save a little space for heavy offensive weapons.  I have to say as well that I swear by the anti-fighter trait, I always put it on my AA guns because I think it's worth the extra space for that +1 to hit.
I haven't had a chance to use seekers or strikers yet, but I was really impressed with how powerful fighters were.  I already have a missile cruiser set up for my next game and I'll be interested to see how well it works.

Re: Tactics and Composition

I've been phasing Anti-Fighter weapons out of my fleet since I realized that in most cases, removing Anti-Fighter and increasing the accuracy of a weapon by 1 point leaves the cost almost identical (especially for cheap weapons - the difference becomes apparent with really heavy stuff, but is nonexistent on smaller guns), but improves performance against all targets rather than just against fighters.

And it's not that AFBs and other short-range anti-fighter weapons aren't useful in denying repeat attacks by fighters; it is just that, as with all short-range weapons, you basically end up sacrificing turns of firing (and against strikers, you only get one to sacrifice).  Granted, to date my family has largely avoided fighters and their variants as being kind of annoying (especially after the Cruise Missile Massacre when, after seeing the number of seekers I deployed at the end of turn 1, my brother simply surrendered despite having crippled my capital ship group during the shooting phase), and has instead favored big-gun navies.

(also, nice Hiigaran emblem)

Re: Tactics and Composition

I agree.  All of the weapons on my ships hit on a 2+.  I do this to make sure that any ship that gets into range 18 recieves a heavy bombardment...  Also, It allows heavy AA fire at long range.  I think that Anti-fighter batteries are semi-useless.  We use mostly strikers and AFBs have No Effect against them.
Here is one of my heavier Dreadnoughts:

USS California  (606)

Hull: 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1           
Engines: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1           
Shields: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1           
Weapons: 1:X 2:X 3:Y 4:Y 5: 6:

X: "14 Inch Photon Cannon"  6/12/18, 1/2+/1/4
; Piercing +2; Starship-exclusive
[ABCD][ABCD][CDEF][CDEF]

Y: "5 Inch Laser Cannon"  6/12/18, 1/2+/1/1
[ABCD][HIJK][HIJK][CDEF]

Special: Hyperdrive; Armor Plating; Marines (6); Teleporters (3) [/b]

Re: Tactics and Composition

Nomad wrote:

I've been phasing Anti-Fighter weapons out of my fleet since I realized that in most cases, removing Anti-Fighter and increasing the accuracy of a weapon by 1 point leaves the cost almost identical (especially for cheap weapons - the difference becomes apparent with really heavy stuff, but is nonexistent on smaller guns), but improves performance against all targets rather than just against fighters.

And it's not that AFBs and other short-range anti-fighter weapons aren't useful in denying repeat attacks by fighters; it is just that, as with all short-range weapons, you basically end up sacrificing turns of firing (and against strikers, you only get one to sacrifice).  Granted, to date my family has largely avoided fighters and their variants as being kind of annoying (especially after the Cruise Missile Massacre when, after seeing the number of seekers I deployed at the end of turn 1, my brother simply surrendered despite having crippled my capital ship group during the shooting phase), and has instead favored big-gun navies.

(also, nice Hiigaran emblem)

Yeah, I got suckered in by the anti-fighter trait, it really is a little pointless. That'll teach me to pay attention to exactly what I am getting with each option.  The more I think about it, the more I think that having a force balanced to deal with every eventuality is the way to go.  Having a load of striker/seeker launching ships is good, unless your opponent has a ton of high ROF, high accuracy popguns.  Having nothing but big giant cannons is good unless your opponent has lots of fast little ships with really long-range guns. 
Or I could be blowing smoke out my aft end.

Re: Tactics and Composition

That's a pretty reasonable conclusion.  Any highly-specialized force has a counter, while a match between a specialized force and a generalist force could go either way depending on circumstance, luck, and tactics.  However, there are some specialist fleets that are very hard to beat with a generalist force, notably fleets using only very long range weapons in the AB or G arcs who sit back and destroy you in detail before you can engage (there was a thread discussing these a while ago).  There were a number of specialist fleets proposed as counters, but metagame solutions like restricting maximum range are also viable (and perhaps more fun) options.

Re: Tactics and Composition

Well, I've started working on my specialist vs generalist question.  I played a vassal game with a friend last night representing a hull 15 battleship duel.  I made a shield 5 engine 4 delivery device for 10 very powerful range 12 cannons, he had a shield 4 engine 3 ship with 2 range 30 cannons and a host of range 15 secondary guns.  Both of us took a page from Admiral Nelson's handbook "Never mind the manouvers, just go straight at 'em."  and even though I had to take a turn of unanswered fire (we played on a smallish map)  I closed with him and we began trading broadsides, by turn three we were both stationary at 3 hexes range and blasting away.  This is exactly where I wanted to be and I have to question his logic in staying with me despite his reach advantage.  To be fair, due to abysmal rolls for me and relatively good rolls for him, he did actual manage to hold his own for several turns.  But by turn 6 the catastrophic damage he was taking finally became decisive when I at last managed to roll more than 2 3+ hits with 8 chances, he couldn't get away fast enough and I spent the last turn firing up his blindspot as he tried to get out of range.
I can't really call it a clear-cut victory because of the bad choices he made.  Although I did make sure I was fully in frame over skype so he could see my victory dance (we've been friends for years)  But while we were rehashing the battle afterwards he started making some astute observations and it reinforced to me the greatest thing about this game, in my opinion.  That each ship is a unique tool and you have to have a concept in mind for every one.  If you design a long range ship, make sure you play it with an eye to keeping it at range and fully utilizing its strengths.  That is way I started this thread.  There is so much potential for different styles and tactics, I just wanted to know what everyone else did.  So keep posting because I want to hear want you have to say on the matter.
Have fun

Re: Tactics and Composition

Well, it's been a while since my last post but I have managed to play a few games here and there.  I just played a 1500pt game the other night with my friend.  I have been refining my fleet steadily and found a design for a cloaking torpedo destroyer that worked VERY well (I'll put it up in the admiralty basin under Prototypes).  It worked so well in fact that I became enamored with it and designed the rest of my fleet as a sort of destroyer delivery device.  I absolutely crushed by buddy with them last time and felt unreasonably confidant this last time around, but darnit, he went and adapted to it and slaughtered me.  He had 3 or 4 ships with multiple damage-3 continuing damage weapons and completely gutted my fleet in the first two turns.  I had a size 12 cruiser and he inflicted 23 points of damage in one shot with them.  That's just not right. 
Needless to say I am in the midst of rethinking my design philosophy.  Bottom line, less reliance on one tactic, I need to make sure that every part of my fleet is a threat in it's own right, and not just a damage sink to distract the opponent from my real winners. 
as always, I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2462

Happy Gaming

Re: Tactics and Composition

Busy designing a fleet, trying to keep it limited to 5 or 6 weapons for the whole fleet to give it "faction flavor". It's tough to shoehorn in everything you want into a hull. Tough decisions.

I've noticed that many player-designed ships are very slow, having a thrust of only 3 or 4. Is engine rating really that irrelevant in the engagements people have been playing?

Re: Tactics and Composition

Democratus wrote:

Busy designing a fleet, trying to keep it limited to 5 or 6 weapons for the whole fleet to give it "faction flavor". It's tough to shoehorn in everything you want into a hull. Tough decisions.

I've noticed that many player-designed ships are very slow, having a thrust of only 3 or 4. Is engine rating really that irrelevant in the engagements people have been playing?

Well, the thing is, the only time you need to emphasize speed over firepower and protection is if you are playing an "escape" type scenario.  Otherwise, it all comes down to trading fire at the end, so why bother filling up 1/3 of your ship with engines that won't help you once the beams and missiles start flying. 

Of course, that is only for regular Starmada games, if you are attaching a campaign game of some kind then there might very well be a reason to make a fast ship over a heavily-armed one.  Because then you can complete objectives beyond the destruction of the enemy.  But in a pitched battle where the only way to win is to destroy the enemy, it is better to be slow and nasty because at one point it will be a stand-up fight.

Re: Tactics and Composition

I hadn't thought of it like that. Our battles seem to devolve into close-quarters maneuver where one ship attempts to get out of the fire arcs of its opponent while keeping its own weapons bearing. Our introduction to the game was through Klingon Armada, though, so we are used to flying like we're still playing SFB.

The thought does occur to design a ship with fast engines and all weapons [CDEF] so it can fire while running. Hmm.

Slow, heavily-armed ships may be the better choice when flying huge fleets as the large formations tend to bog movement down anyway. Food for thought. Thanks!

Re: Tactics and Composition

Re: speed vs. firepower:  I've seen something similar to what y'all're talking about using my BFG-converted Eldar fleet (against both converted Imperial and Chaos) - they're fast as all get out, but it does them very little good.  Haven't had them win one yet.  Might need to rethink their tactics - we've been playing them using fairly standard 'close and shoot' procedures, but maybe maintaining range would work better (except that per strict conversion, they have short-ranged weapons almost exclusively...  maintain range and use bomber saturation?).

Re: high speed and [CDEF]: one problematic build that you hear about on the boards sometimes is the high-speed ship with range 30 [EF] or [L] weapons.  Never seen them in action, though.

Re: Tactics and Composition

I think the bottom line with speed is this, it is only worthwhile if you outrange the opponent and can keep outside their envelop (no mean feat when you aren't using floating gameboard, too easy to get cornered and either forced out of bounds or pounded into air-streaming wrecks).  Now it is nice to have a few points of thrust in reserve for simple manuevering, especially if you are like me and favor big and nasty but limited arc weapons.  But even my slowest ships have no trouble using pivots to keep enemies on target.

Re: Tactics and Composition

It's the limited arc weapons that seem to encourage good engines. If a ship can stay out of the primary weapon arcs of a ship, then it can defeat even a superior foe.

Perhaps it all has to do with the setup. The standard hex map is only 22 hexes wide. Even if two fleets set up in opposite corners (not likely if one fleet is built for close-in fighting) battles tend to start at less than 25 hexes range and can get very close very fast. After that it can pay to have enough thrust to get behind the enemey and stay there.

Again, I should emphasize that I've played less than a dozen battle so far and have only used ships from Klingon Armada. So set me straight if I'm just talking nonsense! smile

Re: Tactics and Composition

Speed is also good if your ships have organic hulls and can evade enemies long enough to regenerate completely. If my memories of BattleFleet Gothic are correct, Nomad's Eldar Ships should have the Trait: Organic Hull and should be inflicting small amounts of Damage at close range, before fleeing out of range, regenerating & repairing all damage, and swooping back in again to inflict a bit more Damage on their un-regenerating foe. Indeed, the reason that Nomad has not yet won with his Fleet, may be that Starmada's customary 10 turn games are not long enough for the tactics, that the Eldar Fleet was designed for, to work before the game is over. This is one of the inconveniances of my hobby of converting ship designs from one game system to another, the ships may not work the same way in the new system as they did in the original.

Re: Tactics and Composition

Umm...  just went and re-read the Eldar rules, not seeing anything about regeneration.  I think Necrons have something like that, but Eldar definitely don't.  I've been of the opinion for a while that the problem the Eldar are having with Starmada is the lack of a second movement phase - they rely on hit-and-run in BFG, implemented with a "move, shoot, change heading, move again" rule that applies only to them.  Holofields also didn't convert well - Countermeasures don't quite cut it.  Might end up stacking CM and Stealth.

I've been thinking about trying larger maps...  the software I use (GameTable) supports infinite maps, so maybe I'll see how that affects play.

Re: Tactics and Composition

I don't have the books where I can get to them right now, but I think I recall that if an Eldar ship had a Bonesinger in its crew complement, it could (with some luck in dice rolls) repair any Damage, Including Hull. Also, if the option was taken to have a nest of crystal spiders on board, some hull damage would be repaired in a similar fashion. I do not remember what the Point Cost was for these options, it may have been too high to be usually taken.

    I agree that the loss of the second movement turn makes Eldar ships less unpredictable and easier to engage. I think Holofields are more easily converted to standard Starmada shields than the Ablative shields of other BFG ships are. Shield Level 4 should be about right.

      While it was suggested that the Grumm's ability to make an additional 1 hexside turn after moving should remain unique to the Grumm, it might also serve to partly represent the Eldar's similar advantage.Providing, of course, that you have the Hammer & Claw Sourcebook and the other players in your game agree.

      Re: Tactics and Composition

      Having had time to consider this subject, I conclude that with the permission of the other players in your games, you could restore to your Eldar ships their characteristic movement pattern. You would have to provide Engines for both movement turns and you would have to pick one axis of the playing field along which you would only be permitted to travel at half speed (or to put it another way, paying twice the normal movement cost).

        It seems that one should multiply the Defense Rating by 2 (for the double movement) less 1/3 (for the third of the playing field on which you would move only at half speed) or, rounding up, *1.7. The effect on the Offensive Rating is more difficult to calculate, but would probably average out to a similar quantity. While the proper way to calculate the Offensive Rating (and find the true Combat Rating for an Eldar ship) would be to calculate the Offensive Rating at half speed, calculate the Offensive Rating at twice speed (doubling this to represent travel along two axes of a hexagonal map), and taking the average by dividing by 3, I feel that for a House Rules game this complexity could be neglected and that multiplying the Combat Rating( as determined from the unmodified DRAT & ORAT) by 1.7 would suffice.

          However, given that all ships are counted as inflicting Damage simultaneously in Starmada, being able to make an additional movement after firing would not reduce the Damage inflicted on your ships.Though it would return some of the flavor that these ships had in BFG, it would not help Nomad's problem with them. I regret that I am not able to be of more help to him.

          Re: Tactics and Composition

          I've always hated gimmicks like that.  GW games is notorious for making a new more powerful special rule for each new army or fleet they design so people will run out and buy the new range of models.  I like to think that I am a fairly good sport, I don't mind losing at all, but when I lose because of some weird advantage that I could not have taken advantage of, it ticks me off.  That's one of the reasons I like Starmada, I can lose a game because my friend found a neat little interaction of weapon traits that works really well and he blew me out of the vacuum with it, but I know that I'm not stuck with the same force next time, I can change and adapt to the new threat and develop my own superweapon.  With those other games my ability to evolve is limited to buying new models that have different stats. 
          I gues I'm just opposed to a rule that only one player can use, and I don't think you can really put a points value on what is essentially a change to the fundamental structure of the game, there are too many variables, that could either be a gross overadvantage, or a complete waste of points. 
          Whew, rant over, on the other hand, house rules can be very cool and my gaming group has already implemented a few of our own.  I am thinking I will start another thread where people can list theirs and comment on everyone else's, maybe put this extra movement rule up there and see what everyone else thinks.

          Re: Tactics and Composition

          MajorTom wrote:

          I can lose a game because my friend found a neat little interaction of weapon traits that works really well and he blew me out of the vacuum with it, but I know that I'm not stuck with the same force next time, I can change and adapt to the new threat and develop my own superweapon. With those other games my ability to evolve is limited to buying new models that have different stats.

          Well said - one of the reasons my group never actually played BFG (the other being the cost outlay).  Also one of the reasons we keep playing D&D ("Well now, that's a pretty trick you pulled off of the Character Optimization Boards, Mr. Munchkin.  No, of course I'm not going to take it away from you.  Being the DM, however, I will use it against you in ways that you could not possibly foresee, to the distinct detriment of your character.  Consider yourself warned."  Repeat until they learn...).  At the risk of sounding tautological, the purpose of my BFG conversions was to convert the fleets to Starmada (a system I enjoy playing and making stuff up for), not to turn Starmada into BFG.  Thus, a 'close enough for government work' solution seems to me close enough - it's more a question of "do they feel like Eldar" than "do they mimic the Eldar's capabilities in BFG."  (not to say that when a nice, easy direct conversion comes along I won't take it, but when it doesn't I'm not one to shoehorn the system).  As a result, I'm thinking I'm going to go with Cloaking for the 'hard to pin down' and 'surprise!' factors within the Starmada framework.

          But I digress.

          Also, Re: Time Limits (JohnRobert mentioned them tangentially): my group hasn't actually ever used turn limits.  We play to Last Ship Floating rather than for VP.  We tried playing for VP once or twice, but we found that it kind of skewed the results - sure, you might've gotten my carrier, but you overextended to do it and now I'm set up to annihilate all of your ships next turn.  How is this a win for you?

          Re: Tactics and Composition

          Nomad wrote:

          We tried playing for VP once or twice, but we found that it kind of skewed the results - sure, you might've gotten my carrier, but you overextended to do it and now I'm set up to annihilate all of your ships next turn.  How is this a win for you?

          This is exactly the kind of thing we love in a campaign. A player should suffer if they overextend themselves - that's the whole point of tactics. A player can win the field only to find they have suffered too much damage to exploit the victory. Just ask Pyrrhus! smile