Topic: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Just want to say... this is the book I look forward to the most.

If you can do carrier groups and PF flotillas in Starmada... I think you'd have a very good game.  (The launching, recovery, and repair of these units will make for some interesting tactical situations.  Also... the interaction of the fighters with the sequence of play make for some good tactical opportunities.)

Yes... FedCom probably should not implement these units... but I really think the Starmada game wants them from a gameplay standpoint.  I don't see adding them as turning Starmada into SFB at all, though I would argue that in the case of Fedcom.  Starmada's fighter abstraction just seems to work fairly well based on the Stingers in Distant Armada (though those Stingers might be a bit wimpy.)  I do like the Starmada Stingers better than the Starmada plasma torpedos.

Also... the only things I'd want to change for a serious campaign game are... Phasers with ranged based ROF are too powerful.  (Not sure how you'd fix that.)  Also... the evasive actions introduced in Distant Armada hurt the long ranged action when you could only expect to make a hit or two at that range as it was.  When players both choose active sensors *and* do directed damage, the death rate increases even more at close range.  Hmmm....  Maybe some repair rules would help give one more reason to keep the range up... or... at least give the game a chance of having a second pass.  (Also... the Romulan War Eagle that loses its Plasma-R really needs a chance to get back into the game!)

But back to the main point.  When fleets collide like that... it suddenly matters where the fighters are in relation to each other and to the fleets.  Fighters and PF's maneuvers could really be the place where the game is won or lost.  (Their ability to pick off weakened ships before they can resolve fire and/or pull back and get repairs is the main thing.)  Plus... ships have to decide whether ignore the fighters are not.  This is much more interesting than a game where people merely close range and fire everything in arc.

Oh... last thing that needs fixing.  I don't want to see fleets of ships all in the same hex.  SFB uses an explosion rule to discourage this; SFB Starmada needs the same thing (if it is not there already)!

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Starmada has an optional explosion rule.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Jeff,
How much SFB have you played? The explosion rules are meant to discourage the stacking of ships. But it doesn't really. The only rule that is effective is Fed Com's rule that limits the number of ships that can fire out of the hex. (i.e. there is a maximum of 3 ships that can fire at the target(s) in the same hex) The problem with the SFB explosion rules is that the explosion value will not penetrate a fresh shield. The only thing that the explosion rules do is to make sure that fighters avoid the smaller ships in the fleet so as to not make the smaller ships a target and have the squadron of fighters disappear in the explosion of the small ship.

When it comes to repair,  I don't think it should be added due to this. Fed Com already has this and it extends the games way too long. In addition to this, in SFB is the WE loses it's Plasma-R for the most part it is out of the game. I think it take 2 turns to repair it and another 3 turns until the Plasma-R is ready until the point the War Eagle is basically out of the fight because it is just a target.

When it comes the issue with "Active"/"Active", I think that it is a little late to discuss that. Though, I do agree with you on that regard.

My only concern about the fighters is if they are allowed to have seeking weapons themselves and therefore making them over powering which is the case with SFB.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Jeffr0 wrote:

... Phasers with ranged based ROF are too powerful.  (Not sure how you'd fix that.)

Well, as I was not totally pleased with the overall results of my games (much too bloody, etc.), I've reworked all ships, including their shields (a bity more stronger and more alike those from FC SSD) and the weapons (less powerfuls and more to my taste).
I'm not sure it will work as I suppose, though.
I can show you what I've done if you want.

Marc

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Andromedan wrote:

Jeff,
How much SFB have you played?

Ouch.  Epic gamer put down!  (Answer: only a couple of real fleet battles... aaaand about 50+ CA/D7 and pirate scenarios.)

Andromedan wrote:

My only concern about the fighters is if they are allowed to have seeking weapons themselves and therefore making them over powering which is the case with SFB.

That is where I'm headed.  I'm thinking that a flight of six fighters should be able to launch a drone wave... and then retire to the mother ship to reload.  The drones and fighters should soak up some of the overpowered phaser-1's....  (It has been my life long dream to do a big battle with Module J... but I've never been able to train an SFB opponent to that point.  I never get past duels and the occasional fleet battle with Basic Set ships.)

Carrier designs are easy: just give 12 fighters to any CA and call it a strike cruiser.  wink  Or... remove the heavy weapons and call it a carrier.  wink

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

I think the simplest solution to the overpowered phaser problem is simply to remove Range Based ROF from the phasers.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Most SFU carriers retain their heavy weapons.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

terryoc wrote:

I think the simplest solution to the overpowered phaser problem is simply to remove Range Based ROF from the phasers.

I like it.  (Range Based ROF basically turns the *all* phasers into Gatlings....)  Also... the only errata required would be to recalculate the ship costs.

Combine that with a house rule that gives every ship a free +1 to shield values all-around... and the nastiness should be about right.

(Of course, that will add a turn or two and maybe an hour to game play....  But there it is....)

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

An extra couple of turns to a game is not a problem IMO. I dislike games which are not long enough for anything really interesting to happen. That was my problem with Warhamster 40K, the board was so large relative to the movement rates of the models, and the game lasted about six turns, so that the game was often won or lost in the setup.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Has anyone tried Range-Based IMP or DMG instead of ROF.

Just my 2p worth, I would have gone for Range-Based IMP to show increased power at shorter ranges.

Paul

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

I think any kind of increase at shorter ranges would be bad. SFU ships just carry so darn MANY phasers, that multiplying their damage at close range makes them overwhelming. Far deadlier than they are in the base games, at any rate. We can't reduce the # of phasers, because we need to be faithful to the background, but we can reduce the damage each does.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

My thought was that replacing Range-Based ROF with Range-Based IMP removes the "All phasers becoming Gatlings"(except phaser-3 n/a).
I could be wrong but I believed the whole ROF thing was to represent an increased possibility of damage at shorter ranges, which the Range-based IMP would do.
No re-calculating the ship's points as they would not change.

One thing I have wondered about. When did a phaser "bank" (with a single targeting system) become able to fire at more than a single target?

Paul

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Jeffr0 wrote:
terryoc wrote:

I think the simplest solution to the overpowered phaser problem is simply to remove Range Based ROF from the phasers.

I like it.  (Range Based ROF basically turns the *all* phasers into Gatlings....)  Also... the only errata required would be to recalculate the ship costs.

That's what I did, for both Phaser 1 & 2. I don't Know about phaser 4 but as they are used only by bases and that currently I don't play with/against one, it's not a big deal.
I also increase the ACC b y 1 for both laser (ACC 3+ for ph 1 and ACC 4+ for Ph 2). In the end, a lot less damaghe at short range but I have to test it though.

Combine that with a house rule that gives every ship a free +1 to shield values all-around... and the nastiness should be about right.

I reworked the shield by giving them more alike their FC counterparts. For example, a D7 shjould have the same shield a sa Fed CA, and I gave this CA better shield overall.

(Of course, that will add a turn or two and maybe an hour to game play....  But there it is....)

At least, the game shouldn't be over after two game turns of long-range fire.  big_smile

Marc

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

OldnGrey wrote:

Has anyone tried Range-Based IMP or DMG instead of ROF.

Just my 2p worth, I would have gone for Range-Based IMP to show increased power at shorter ranges.

Paul

Although it will make the phasers a bit less potent, they could still ravage a ship, much more than their FC counterpart could do. I understand that the range based rof is partly there to kill swarms of drones, but I rarely used phasers to kill them. Either you don't have the time to kill them, either it's not worth it.

Marc

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

One thing I have wondered about. When did a phaser "bank" (with a single targeting system) become able to fire at more than a single target?

SFU ships don't have  "phaser banks", they have individual phasers, each of which is capable of firing at a different target. They do have multiple phasers grouped into the same arc, such as the Federation CA which has six phasers in the saucer grouped into three "banks" in distinct arcs.

On another point: while phasers do get better at close range in the SFU, you need to be REALLY close (like right in the same hex!) before a single phaser can compete with the output of a heavy weapon. As written, that's happening at Range 5 or so, which means that a Federation CA is vaporising a Klingon D7 at that range. At that range, a CA should have a decent chance of inflicting serious damage. But having a better than even chance of blowing the target up? No way. I feel that the increased damage from a ship's phasers is adequately represented by the fact you're firing them more accurately at close range. Since most ships have a lot of phasers, this will result in phasers reliably dealing damage up close. Which gives the right feel.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Cross-posted from the FC Forum:

Phaser-1s do the following damage (on average, assuming equal "range bands" a la Starmada):

SHORT (0-8 hexes): 3.9
MEDIUM (9-16 hexes): 0.9
LONG (17-25 hexes): 0.5

This is comparable to the ratio of short- to long-range damage potential in Starmada. i.e., in Starmada, it's 6:1; in FC, it's 7.8:1.

HOWEVER, it is true that the shots-to-kill ratio for weapons in Starmada is lower than in FC. The Federation CA has a total of 101 damage boxes in FC. This means, on average, it takes 25.9 short-range phaser-1 shots to kill the CA (101/3.9, ignoring the effect of shields).

In Starmada, at short range, three dice are rolled with a 3+ to hit, or two expected hits per shot. The CA has 10 hull points, meaning a shots-to-kill ratio of 10:1 (again, ignoring the effect of shields).

The "problem", therefore, is not that phasers get too powerful as the range decreases; it's that the expectation of survivability for SFB/FC players is higher than for Starmada players.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Shields are working very differently between FC and Starmada. In FC, they soak off a lot of damage before giving up, helped by batteries, and leaking a few damages. With Starmada, it's the opposite (or so). They stop a good part of the hits (usually half of them), but leak a lot most damage points are translated in engine, weapons and hull.
In the end, the  first fires between ships in FC damage shield whilst the first fires in Starmada can kill them. With a medium battle (about 1000 points), I was able to kill a klingon destroyer with disruptor long range fire from two cruiser. I would never see that in FC.
Last point, if I don't want my games to drag a lot, I don't them to last two turns (I'm exagerrating, but here is the point). I want enough maneuvers to avoid them becoming long and medium -range  turkey shoot. Also, it could make tractors and marines a bit more useful as they never enter in action because ships are usually destroyed before that.

Marc

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

madpax wrote:

Also, it could make tractors and marines a bit more useful as they never enter in action because ships are usually destroyed before that.

This.

Tractors are essential to what make SFB combat it's own "thing".  While I don't necessarily expect such a major piece to make it through the translation process (plotted movement with a single simultaneous fire phase is pretty stringent), the fact that there are rules for things in the game that will basically never get used because everything is dead by the time you get to range 5 or so... that's telling.  (Sorry if I'm belabouring the point here-- just trying to back up madpax.)

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

The "problem", therefore, is not that phasers get too powerful as the range decreases; it's that the expectation of survivability for SFB/FC players is higher than for Starmada players.

Daniel, the systems need to produce roughly consistent results... and if Star Fleet Mada is producing situations in which ships are dying, effectively, 2.5 times faster than the background says they should, then IMO that is a genuine problem.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

terryoc wrote:

The "problem", therefore, is not that phasers get too powerful as the range decreases; it's that the expectation of survivability for SFB/FC players is higher than for Starmada players.

Daniel, the systems need to produce roughly consistent results... and if Star Fleet Mada is producing situations in which ships are dying, effectively, 2.5 times faster than the background says they should, then IMO that is a genuine problem.

To some extent there is something of a "scaling" effect with Starmada. Ships do blow up faster in this conversion, but you can put a whole bunch on the board. My personal opinion has long been that the Starmada SFU ships are properly sized, but over-gunned for my taste. I've tested simply cutting the number of weapons in half, and in a couple of battles I have found that more to my liking. I think some of the problem is using the squadron scale FC designs as a conversion base rather than the Fleet scale which would seem more appropriate to me as a starting point for a Starmada conversion.
When I first saw the Phasers in KA I wondered why they weren't done as dual mode weapons with a Type 1 mode and a carronaded, antifighter Type 3-like mode.
Cheers,
Erik

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

Huh. My initial response to this appears to have disappeared into the ether...

terryoc wrote:

Daniel, the systems need to produce roughly consistent results... and if Star Fleet Mada is producing situations in which ships are dying, effectively, 2.5 times faster than the background says they should, then IMO that is a genuine problem.

I have to disagree. The idea is not to recreate the SFB/FC "experience", but rather to express the Star Fleet Universe in Starmada terms. Thus, while internal consistency is important (e.g. the Fed CA and Klingon D7 should be a good match for each other) consistency between game systems is much less so.

For one thing, while there is no specified Starmada time scale, the length of a Starmada game turn is certainly different than the length of a SFB/FC game turn.

One issue that I do believe may need to be addressed and nailed down more effectively is ships' relative thrust ratings. I have tried many different methods, but I still am not happy with how SFB/FC power translates to Starmada movement. Any suggestions on this front would be appreciated.

Blacklancer99 wrote:

I think some of the problem is using the squadron scale FC designs as a conversion base rather than the Fleet scale which would seem more appropriate to me as a starting point for a Starmada conversion.

Not sure this would make a difference. While the Fleet Scale ships have 1/2 the weapons of Squadron Scale, they also have 1/2 the damage boxes. Thus, the hits-to-kill ratios would remain the same regardless of which scale is used as a basis for conversion.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

cricket wrote:
Blacklancer99 wrote:

I think some of the problem is using the squadron scale FC designs as a conversion base rather than the Fleet scale which would seem more appropriate to me as a starting point for a Starmada conversion.

Not sure this would make a difference. While the Fleet Scale ships have 1/2 the weapons of Squadron Scale, they also have 1/2 the damage boxes. Thus, the hits-to-kill ratios would remain the same regardless of which scale is used as a basis for conversion.

True to a point. But, since you can control the  process, you could technically use whatever hull conversion you wanted to, no? For example, you could use the full fleet scale hull of 8 for the Fed heavy cruiser, only 2 less than the current Starmada version, while reducing the weapons by 50%. I think the biggest thing would be working out the shield conversion so they weren't too feeble. I think that keeping the shields at their current value while reducing weapons is actually a good way to  give players the feeling that their ships are more survivable. Personally, I would rather see fights where ships get whittled down over a couple of turns of fighting than a 2 turn wholesale slaughter. But then again, I would rather fight a battle like Constitution v. Java than Bismark v. Hood any day  wink
Cheers,
Erik

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

I like the fighters in SFB and look forward to seeing PF's and Fighters making their way into Starmada.  The game is very open for this type of system tweak.  BTW, but my calcs, a fighter shuttle with drone counter should take up about 16 space points.

Re: SFU Starmada: Fighters and PF's

cricket wrote:

One issue that I do believe may need to be addressed and nailed down more effectively is ships' relative thrust ratings. I have tried many different methods, but I still am not happy with how SFB/FC power translates to Starmada movement. Any suggestions on this front would be appreciated.

Cricket,
For my homebrew SFU designs I do the following:

=IF(TURN_MODE="O",0,IF(TURN_MODE="S",1,MAX(2,ROUNDUP(QUOTIENT(SUM(QUOTIENT(COMBAT_SPEED,3),TURN_MODE_BONUS),2),0))))

Where TURN_MODE is the ship's turn mode, O for bases and S for sublight ships, FC/SFB value otherwise.
COMBAT_SPEED is total power minus the cost of arming/firing all weapons (FWIW, I use F=1,G=2,S=3,R=4 for arming costs of plasmas), times the move cost.

TURN_MODE_BONUS is 0 for turn mode F, 1 for turn mode E, 2 for turn mode D, etc, up to 6 for A and 7 for AA.

I am pretty happy with the results this gets, although I haven't tested much outside of the Feds, Klingons, and Romulons. Turn mode may be too important in my formula, but I wanted the extra manueverability to add something.

Drone-heavy ships tend to have higher speeds than disruptor/plasma/photon ones, but since their main weapons are quickly exhausted I figure it evens out.



*each battery = 1/2 power
**Turn mode F = 0, E=1, D=2, ...etc