Topic: Strikers to powerful?

Hello everyone,
On Monday, my Dad, nephew, Gaming Glenn & I played a game of Starmada at Gaming Glenn's store.  Each side had 4,000 points.  The game was decided when a huge flock of strikers that my DDGs launched hit their targets.  These were flights of eight: 1/3+/1/3, speed 15, halves shields.
These strikers were brutal and decisive.  The other fleet was defanged and ravaged.  During the ship to ship firing phase they had few weapons to fire and were pulverized.   This happens often when I bring my DDGs along. :shock:
We have decided to not use strikers or even seekers in our games.  Fighters are still allowed.  This may seem very radical, but it seems that strikers can be too powerful.  Has anyone else encountered this problem?

Re: Strikers to powerful?

How huge is huge?  The launch rate restrictions limit how many any given ship can put in the air per turn, even with launch tubes.  Yours are kind of high-end and operate in big flights to minimize that, but how many were there, and did the enemy fleet have fighters/strikers/seekers of its own built for defense against that sort of thing?

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Heavens, those are like 100 point missiles.  How many were in the air in a 4000 point game?  Anyway, I always carry 25 point baby fighters just to CAP-dogfight things like that; having no fighters means you deserve to eat a few missiles.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Boneless wrote:

Heavens, those are like 100 point missiles.  How many were in the air in a 4000 point game?  Anyway, I always carry 25 point baby fighters just to CAP-dogfight things like that; having no fighters means you deserve to eat a few missiles.

That's what I was thinking myself - or cheap striker/seeker designs built for anti-missile/anti-fighter work.  A few of those are generally worth bringing to the table IME.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

BeowulfJB wrote:

The game was decided when a huge flock of strikers that my DDGs launched hit their targets.  These were flights of eight: 1/3+/1/3, speed 15, halves shields.
These strikers were brutal and decisive.  The other fleet was defanged and ravaged.  During the ship to ship firing phase they had few weapons to fire and were pulverized.   This happens often when I bring my DDGs along. :shock:
We have decided to not use strikers or even seekers in our games.  Fighters are still allowed.  This may seem very radical, but it seems that strikers can be too powerful.  Has anyone else encountered this problem?

I see posts like this every so often, and I'm not sure I understand the apparent need to min-max.
If there seems to consistently be a problem when excesses like the above are used, my question is, why do you do it?  wink
It just doesn't seem like it'd be much fun.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

With a point build kit of a game, making the fleet is half the fun.  But I do agree that it can break the playing part of the game if you hit on a single note that is exactly what the other guy's fleet isn't ready for.  But only in a one-off game.  If this was in the context of some campaign (like the Simplest, which I love) then the losing side would have the ability to adjust their fleet.  A missile interceptor designed to just sit on a 100 point missile can be made for 15.  (4 12 6+ 0, No Hull Damage, Non Piercing, Interceptor)  Now that's a savings.  Then we'd see what happens to such a specialized fleet.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Oh my.  And I forgot, in any kind of campaign those missiles don't grow on trees.  They spensive.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

underling wrote:

I see posts like this every so often, and I'm not sure I understand the apparent need to min-max.
If there seems to consistently be a problem when excesses like the above are used, my question is, why do you do it?  wink
It just doesn't seem like it'd be much fun.

Because if you don't, the enemy will.  Or more accurately, the enemy will regardless of whether you do or not, so it's kind of advisable if you want to win (because winning is fun, and losing is distinctly less fun).  And yeah, it'd be nice to play fair / light / non-cheesed...  but I'll be damned if I can convince the people I play with to do it.  And so the minmaxing goes on, until the game ends (like it's kinda doing now...).

But yeah, CAP-dogfight fighter interceptors are definitely the counter to use (as opposed to striker / seeker interceptors who can't dogfight and thereby guarantee detonation / destruction next turn).  The trouble with those is that they're self-countering; if you know the enemy's bringing interceptors to dogfight, all you have to do is bring about the same number (for the same cost), try to dogfight them before they get your missiles, and then you're back where you started...  it's just a point-tax on both sides.  But it's the only reliably effective counter we ever found against striker saturation (besides also using striker saturation and hoping you're the last one standing when the dust settles); Point Defense wasn't enough, upgrading AFBs so they could fire reactively barely helped, interceptor strikers or seekers weren't enough, long-range AF weapons sometimes worked but not nearly as reliably, shields have been right out of the question since the Halves / Ignores traits were released...

Re: Strikers to powerful?

shields have been right out of the question since the Halves / Ignores traits were released...

Agreed, which is why we don't play with Halves/Ignores Shields locally.  Their departure from the core SAE was one of the best things in that edition.  Their return is close to the worst.  Very glad they didn't ooze into SFO, and hope never to see them there.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

starbreaker wrote:

shields have been right out of the question since the Halves / Ignores traits were released...

Agreed, which is why we don't play with Halves/Ignores Shields locally.  Their departure from the core SAE was one of the best things in that edition.  Their return is close to the worst.  Very glad they didn't ooze into SFO, and hope never to see them there.

Do you feel the same way about Piercing?  Or is it mild enough to be okay?  (I use Pierce 3, Extra Shield Damage on mine and fights have trouble making it to round 3.)

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Boneless wrote:
starbreaker wrote:

shields have been right out of the question since the Halves / Ignores traits were released...

Agreed, which is why we don't play with Halves/Ignores Shields locally.  Their departure from the core SAE was one of the best things in that edition.  Their return is close to the worst.  Very glad they didn't ooze into SFO, and hope never to see them there.

Do you feel the same way about Piercing?  Or is it mild enough to be okay?  (I use Pierce 3, Extra Shield Damage on mine and fights have trouble making it to round 3.)

Piercing +2 is very similar mathematically to Halves Shields; the only case where it is different is against Shields 3, where P+2 reduces them to effectively Shields 1, but Halves rounds them up to effective Shields 2 for the same price.  If Halves is broken, then P+2 definitely is as well, and P+3 is even better.  Piercing +1 is pretty OK, though; it's problematic if you're running Shields 5, but not so bad otherwise.  And it is good to have some counter to S5 other than just "more impact".

Re: Strikers to powerful?

That was our opinion as well - we play Piercing +1 only.  I'd halfway forgotten Piercing even came in +2 and +3 variants, truth being told.  You'll note that it doesn't in SFO, which is again a Good Thing in my book.

I think part of the problem is that the number of options (when using everything unrestricted) to bypass defenses is much larger than the number of ways to make yourself tougher to kill.  There are millions of combos of weapon traits, most of which make weapons better at poking holes in things.  Defensively, you've got shields, a few things like countersmeasures and cloak, and other than that you're counting on luck and clever maneuvering.  You can't even buy extra hull boxes, unless I've missed something in a supplement somewhere.  Just plain fewer options.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

"How huge is huge?" was asked.  I had three DDGs, they are six hull and each carried four flights of these Eight-packs of Strikers.  There were two turns before we were in weapons range so the DDgs were able to launch all of their "Talos Strikers".  My fleet also had two battleships.  My nephew was on my side and he no strikers.  The other side had no fighters, strikers, etc. at all, but with both sides having the same amount of points, this should not have been such a lopsided battle.

:idea: I play a WW2 naval game called War At Sea.  In this game, when aircraft attack ships, the defending ships and other ships in range are able to fire their AA guns at the attacking aircraft, and friendly fighters can attempt to stop the attacking aircraft, etc.
Perhaps the phase of attacks by either of these three units, fighters/strikers/seekers, could be changed:
:arrow: These units could move the same as they do now, but not do any attacks until all have moved.  Then any ships that have weapons in range can fire at hostile flights of any of these units that are in range; also antifighter batteries can fire at any of these units within range one.  Then dogfights, seeker/striker intercepting seeker/striker/fighter combat can be resolved.  Finally any fighters/strikers/seekers make attacks on ships, but any seekers on the defending ship in "ADD" mode can defend the attacked ship.  Another change is that damage caused by each flights does Not take effect until all attacks are resolved, the same way it is done when ships fire at eachother.  After this, any shipboard weapons that have not fired during the previous AA phase and that were not destroyed by fighter/striker/seeker damage can fire at other ships or even at any remaining fighters if they wanted.
I think that this could make these units less brutal.  What does everyone else think?

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Thanks for the numbers there.  Going back to my side-point for a sec, you fired 1200 out of your 4000 points in missiles.  30% losses before the fight starts is kinda pyhh... pyrh... lose-y for a win.  The reason this isn't off topic is that it shows there is a balance vector (number of shots/fights) that isn't being handled in a one-off game.

We banned Ammo our third game after we realized it was balanced to be even for ten shots and our fights lasted three rounds.  Strikers are the same way.  It isn't a handicap to super front-load your attacks if there is no long term to worry about.  Dunno what to do about it, but I've been thinking about campaigns a lot recently and strikers were on my mind.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

For one-off games, adjusting the VP cost of expendable stuff by a significant factor might help, but you'd have to include an increase of some kind for ships with One-Shot and/or Ammo weapons as well.  Hard to say what an appropriate increase might be, it's likely to be very situational.  Slow weapon users might need a bump as well, but I doubt it - I've never seen the level of problem with them I have with extreme striker/fighter/one-shot fleets.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

underling wrote:

I see posts like this every so often, and I'm not sure I understand the apparent need to min-max.
If there seems to consistently be a problem when excesses like the above are used, my question is, why do you do it?  wink
It just doesn't seem like it'd be much fun.

Getting to this belatedly, I think the problem may be that it isn't "consistently" a problem, it's an occasional rock-paper-scissors mismatch that occurs, and therefore the shock makes it feel like more of an issue than it really is.  The strikers the OP was using are easily countered for a fraction of their cost if you expect them, or are just building to cover a wide variety of potential threats.  Even the shield-ignoring/halves shields/high-piercing traits I hate so much are easily countered - they're a huge waste against a swarming fleet of ships with low or no shields, or a mob of fighters/strikers for that matter.  We skip on them locally because we prefer to keep the shield penetration mechanic meaningful, but that doesn't make an argument for everyone doing it.  There's something that "breaks" just about any fleet configuration out there - just a question of how often you wind up facing it.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

starbreaker wrote:

Getting to this belatedly, I think the problem may be that it isn't "consistently" a problem, it's an occasional rock-paper-scissors mismatch that occurs, and therefore the shock makes it feel like more of an issue than it really is.  The strikers the OP was using are easily countered for a fraction of their cost if you expect them, or are just building to cover a wide variety of potential threats.  Even the shield-ignoring/halves shields/high-piercing traits I hate so much are easily countered - they're a huge waste against a swarming fleet of ships with low or no shields, or a mob of fighters/strikers for that matter.  We skip on them locally because we prefer to keep the shield penetration mechanic meaningful, but that doesn't make an argument for everyone doing it.  There's something that "breaks" just about any fleet configuration out there - just a question of how often you wind up facing it.

I definitely understand the rock-paper-scissors effect.
With respect to the OP, however, it sounds like it kind of is a consistent problem, and I was basing my comments on this:

"This happens often when I bring my DDGs along."

That sounds to me like it's fairly consistent.  smile
I just don't understand the mentality of bringing a force list that consistenly presents mismatch problems.
To me, it doesn't make for much of a fun game.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

I love how in the Klingon and Romulan Armada you can fire drones (read strikers/seekers here) in a defensive role before offensive drones attack.  Might be something to add.

Of course, others have talked about a great counter for those strikers already so  I won't get into that!  When we were playing, we got 3 to 5 random weapon traits and 3 to 5 random starship traits and had to make a fleet with that.  It was a lot of fun to 'figure' out how to use the effectively.  You guys might try that!

-B

Re: Strikers to powerful?

jygro wrote:

Of course, others have talked about a great counter for those strikers already so  I won't get into that!  When we were playing, we got 3 to 5 random weapon traits and 3 to 5 random starship traits and had to make a fleet with that.  It was a lot of fun to 'figure' out how to use the effectively.  You guys might try that!

-B

I second that.  Instead of 100% twink we each made a wishlist and rolled for 4 weapons and 2 systems to use.

But I disagree with the sentiment of it not being fun to want to do well.  If winning wasn't the goal you could just hug your opponent and watch TV.  It's a war game.  The whole reason you are each standing there is to crush the other's little plastic doodads on a space map.  And then have pizza.  Taking the attitude of "I didn't want to hurt you so I didn't bring missiles" is shortchanging your opponent.

Re: Strikers to powerful?

Boneless wrote:

But I disagree with the sentiment of it not being fun to want to do well.  If winning wasn't the goal you could just hug your opponent and watch TV.  It's a war game.  The whole reason you are each standing there is to crush the other's little plastic doodads on a space map.  And then have pizza.  Taking the attitude of "I didn't want to hurt you so I didn't bring missiles" is shortchanging your opponent.

Hold on now...
Who the hell is saying anything about not wanting to win?
I've been wargaming for over 40 years, and miniatures gaming for over 20, and I don't think I've ever not seen winning as the goal. I guess I just see a difference in beating someone, and beating someone where a decided advantage exists, for whatever the reason. I just don't see the point in that.