Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

This does bring up something else- how will weapons degrade from ship damage this time around? In the previous few editions, individual weapons were destroyed from attacks, but individual mounts aren't really tracked anymore. In this one, will entire banks get wrecked? Will damage checks impose additional negative modifiers on the dice columns? Or will there be some new, daring shenanigans involved?

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

More discussion on this later*, but in general terms:

The simple method is for weapons to degrade uniformly. At each damage step (1/3 and 2/3 of the total), a die roll is made:

ROLL : RESULT
1 : None
2-4 : Apply a -1 firing penalty to all attacks
5-6 : Apply a -2 firing penalty to all attacks

The reasons for these penalties are not really important (i.e. are individual weapons lost? Is the rate of fire being reduced? Is energy bleeding out?); the effect is that the firepower of a ship's weapons is being reduced.

The more advanced method is to track damage to individual banks. At each damage step (1/3 and 2/3 of the total), roll one die per bank:

ROLL : RESULT
1 : Bank is destroyed
2-3 : Bank is damaged; apply a -2 penalty
4-6 : None

A second "damaged" result indicates the bank is destroyed.

The nice thing is, since the overall effect is identical (an average loss of 1/3 firepower at each damage step), each player can decide how to track damage for himself, and the game will still balance out.

*I'm planning on a few more "Designer's Notes" mini-articles, including one on movement, one on defenses, and one on how ships are damaged/destroyed.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

cricket wrote:

More discussion on this later*, but in general terms:
The simple method is for weapons to degrade uniformly. At each damage step (1/3 and 2/3 of the total), a die roll is made:
ROLL : RESULT
1 : None
2-4 : Apply a -1 firing penalty to all attacks
5-6 : Apply a -2 firing penalty to all attacks
The nice thing is, since the overall effect is identical (an average loss of 1/3 firepower at each damage step), each player can decide how to track damage for himself, and the game will still balance out.

This has worked really well in playtesting.
It's fast, and you don't have to worry about tracking every damaging hit.

The threshhold checks are not unlike those in Full Thrust.
On average ships will degrade in a similar fashion.
But every so often one ship will suffer a major minus to weapons effectiveness, while another ship takes a lot of damage but can still fire effectively. The same can be said for the other three main systems: ECM, thrust, and shields.
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I'm pretty excited for this.  It sounds to me that I can make a high damage weapons by making my attack dice hit on a 4+ and I'm sure that I can make them worse by making them only hit on 6+.  I'm also sure that there will be traits that allow me to do two points of damage per hit so that's all covered.

I wish that the movement system had 'more' options than the current system.  I understand the movement system,but new players that come from other space combat systems completely balk at it even if the two systems are akin. 

I reserve my judgment on the inititative system after I get more games with it under my belt, but now I have to wait for the new system and the ships before I send in my events for Klingon Armada for Origins 2012.

In the end, in Dan I trust (and Kevin too - I like Kevin),
-Bren

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Call me fiddly, but I like tracking individual weapon hits/misses. Oh well.

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

KDLadage wrote:

Call me fiddly, but I like tracking individual weapon hits/misses. Oh well.

As mentioned above, it is possible to treat each individual weapon as a separate "bank" -- it's just that IMHO grouping all weapons with a given arc into one bank is much cleaner -- and cuts down on rounding error.

For example, let's say you have five forward half (FH, equivalent to SAE's "GHI" arc) laser turrets with 1.5 attack dice each. If you group them all into a single bank, your attack dice look like this:

LASER TURRETS : [FH] : 8 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1

If you fire this bank with no attack modifier, you would roll 8 dice. On the other hand, if you set the weapons up as five individual banks, it would look like this:

LASER TURRETS : [FH5][FH5][FH5][FH5][FH5] : 8 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1

With no attack modifier (aside from the -5 for the bank mods), you'd roll a total of 5 dice, not 8.

P.S. You are fiddly. smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Fiddly? Oh yes. Yes I am, Dan.

Great to be able to drop in. I just hope I can hang out more in the next few months.

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I'm curious what aspects of weapon design will create a weapon with distinct tactical uses.

For example, the range of a weapon will change how the ship it is mounted on plays.

On the other hand hitting twice for 1 damage is the same as hitting once for 2 damage.

Will there be weapons that excel vs targets with broken shields, or against armor, or at destroying systems, or blowing up fighters, or blowing up battleships, etc? How much of weapon design is fluff, and how much is meaningful?

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

The weapon that gets two shots doing one damage would be somewhat more useful than a weapon that shoots once doing two damage. 
:idea: The weapon shooting twice would be better for AA fire against fighters, strikers, seekers, or when firing at flotillas.

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Also, suppose a bank (either a powerful high ROF or many small weapons) with 10 attack dice and no damage modifier, and a bank with a big weapon having 1 attack die and a damage modifier of 5 (purely hypothetical). Both hit on 4+.
Suppose a target ship have three hulls with a value of 5 each.
In average, both weapons should generate the same amount of damage over time. But during their first fire, the first bank should inflict 5 damage and provoke a damage check. The second one will either hit (two damage check) either miss. Thus, if unlucky, the second weapon will do nothing whilst the first one will damage significantly the target and thus reduce its efficiency, ensuring a better survival.

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Something I don't think anyone else has asked (that I have noticed) is will there be Dual Mode Weapons? I have found they are extremely useful when converting over ships from other games, particularly B5Wars, where a lot of weapons can fire in very different ways depending on the choices made by the commanding players.
Cheers,
Erik

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Yes. Dual-mode weapons will continue to be supported -- in fact, they will be improved, in that the different modes will now be allowed different range values.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

cricket wrote:

Yes. Dual-mode weapons will continue to be supported -- in fact, they will be improved, in that the different modes will now be allowed different range values.

Excellent news! Both that they will be in there and that they will be allowed different ranges...that always made things a little wonky to convert. Thanks Dan, Happy New Year to you and yours!
Cheers,
Erik

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

One thing i didn't like with dual-mode weapons was that you have to determine which mode you will have to use when you write the moves. But you could lose the effect if, for example, the mode you chose has a shorter range (AKA overloaded weapons from SFU with carronade). Worse, I usually forget to decide if I will overload my torpedoes... big_smile
Now, with easier moves, they can become more powerful...

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

madpax wrote:

One thing i didn't like with dual-mode weapons was that you have to determine which mode you will have to use when you write the moves. But you could lose the effect if, for example, the mode you chose has a shorter range (AKA overloaded weapons from SFU with carronade). Worse, I usually forget to decide if I will overload my torpedoes... big_smile
Now, with easier moves, they can become more powerful...

Marc

I actually liked having to make the choices as it felt like an added level of tactics. In a couple of games we did weapon selection as a "hidden order" written on a piece of paper and left flipped over until the shooting started, that way the opposing sides had to guess and counter guess as to what form of the weapon to use, or they would face...if any of that makes any sense...
Cheers,
Erik

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Blacklancer99 wrote:

I actually liked having to make the choices as it felt like an added level of tactics. In a couple of games we did weapon selection as a "hidden order" written on a piece of paper and left flipped over until the shooting started, that way the opposing sides had to guess and counter guess as to what form of the weapon to use, or they would face...if any of that makes any sense...

Totally agreed. My problem was that I never remember to chose mode before moving. I remember that just before firing and that's too late...

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

cricket wrote:

Yes. Dual-mode weapons will continue to be supported -- in fact, they will be improved, in that the different modes will now be allowed different range values.

Ooh, that is good news!  Won't have to stick Carronade on half of my modes now...

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I notice that on the weapon readouts the strongest arcs are the ones with the lowest numbers.

It seems like it'd be nice if the arc #s were counted from the right, so the higher numbers were the stronger weapons?

I don't know if this would actually work, but high = bad seems somewhat counter-intuitive.

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Ozymandias wrote:

I notice that on the weapon readouts the strongest arcs are the ones with the lowest numbers.

It seems like it'd be nice if the arc #s were counted from the right, so the higher numbers were the stronger weapons?

I don't know if this would actually work, but high = bad seems somewhat counter-intuitive.

I think that you have it "back to front". smile
The arc numbers depend upon the total number of weapons in a battery and how many of the weapons fire into the arc.
"Low" numbers can mean that most or the weapons are covering that arc or that there are not many weapons opverall in that battery.
All will become clear when the rules are released and you have played with them.
I thought it odd at first but have come to like the system.

Paul

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I think that you have it "back to front". 
The arc numbers depend upon the total number of weapons in a battery and how many of the weapons fire into the arc.
"Low" numbers can mean that most or the weapons are covering that arc or that there are not many weapons opverall in that battery.
All will become clear when the rules are released and you have played with them.
I thought it odd at first but have come to like the system.

Paul

Curse you beta testers. I am impatient!

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

OldnGrey wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:

I notice that on the weapon readouts the strongest arcs are the ones with the lowest numbers.
It seems like it'd be nice if the arc #s were counted from the right, so the higher numbers were the stronger weapons?
I don't know if this would actually work, but high = bad seems somewhat counter-intuitive.

I think that you have it "back to front". smile
The arc numbers depend upon the total number of weapons in a battery and how many of the weapons fire into the arc.
"Low" numbers can mean that most or the weapons are covering that arc or that there are not many weapons opverall in that battery.
All will become clear when the rules are released and you have played with them.
I thought it odd at first but have come to like the system.
Paul

What Paul said...  smile
Another way to look at it is to think of the firing arc modifiers as fractions.
The bigger the number (firing arc modifier), in reality the smaller the number of weapons firing into that arc for that weapon entry.

For example, take a weapon with the following entry: [FX2][AX2]
What this is telling us is that half of the weapons (dice) are firing into the forward extended arc, while half of the weapons (dice) are firing into the aft extended arc.

I don't think the firing arc mods can always be taken at face value for the percentage of weapons firing into a particular arc due to the formula involved, but hopefully you get the idea.
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

underling wrote:

I don't think the firing arc mods can always be taken at face value for the percentage of weapons firing into a particular arc due to the formula involved, but hopefully you get the idea.

It's pretty close:

-1 = 70%
-2 = 50%
-3 = 35%
-4 = 25%
-5 = 18%
-6 = 13%
etc.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Close Defense Cannons    [FF3][FP4][FS4][AP6] 2-4-6    14-10-7-5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0

Why does this have 2 groups of numbers?

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Ozymandias wrote:

Close Defense Cannons    [FF3][FP4][FS4][AP6] 2-4-6    14-10-7-5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0

Why does this have 2 groups of numbers?

First group (2-4-6) is the weapon's range bands.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Ah. That should have been obvious in hind-sight. tongue