Topic: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

It has finally happened here in Jacksonville with my gaming buddies: 
Ships are being designed with Expendable Weapons. neutral
One of my friends used two 200 points ships that were armed with only one of these weapons:
Arc=FF7, Range=18, weapon traits=(Acr/Dx2,Cts,Exp,Fcs,Tls).  These two c200 point ships easily destroyed two of my c500 point DNs.  I calculate that this weapon will do an average of 105 points at long range. 
Needless to say, the other side easily won the battle, because the side with expendables has a tremendous advantage; they're brutal.  I personally think that Expendables are under-pointed, but if my friends want to use them, I will have no choice but to install them on my ships.  The next game that we play will be very bloody and innitiative will much more important.  I will post an updated version of my Four-turreted DN with expendable weapons added later.
Cheers

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

We ploayed one game of Starmada using Expendable Weapons:  We quickly decided that they were too powerful for their low cost.  I think the cost multiplier of .2 is too cheap, .5 would be more reasonable, considering the design my friend brought.  Here it is:

Shadow Zone BREAKER class
CR=130, Hull=10, Armor=0, Thrust=9, no shields, no ECM, stealth, etc.
Here was it's only weapon; a brutal expendable weapon:
Death Matrix
Arc=FR, Range=6, it has {Acr,Cts,Dx2,Dx3,Exp,Sct},  Attack Dice 16-11-8-6...

My friend kept this ship just out of range 18, which is the maximum range we limite ship-weapons too.  Then the turn he won innitiative, he overloaded the engines of this ship and charged to range two of my largest Four-turret DN.  This DN has 31 Ablative Armor & 46 Hull, with a cost of 515.  He fired and vaporized this larger DN
I Calculate that at short range this Breaker class ship should, on the average, do 33x21=681 points of damage.  If he had split his fire, he could have Destroyed all ships on my side with one shot. :!:
Have I miss calculated? 
This quickly led us to rapidly agree that expendibles are broken, Very Broken.  No disrespect to the S:NE designers, but I think y'all underestimated the potential power of the Exp Weapon Trait.
Have other players used the Exp W.T.?   How did it turn out?
We are playing S:NE this afternoon w/o the Exp W.T.

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

I admit that is one thing that I missed looking at the Nova rules. AE has a limit of three traits per weapon (core rules page 44) (One of which may be range based).
This has changed to two range based in Nova but the overall trait limit has not been carried over.
If the limit was imposed two of those weapon traits would go.
I am still not sure about allowing Dx2 and Dx3 in the same weapon. As you have found, it can lead to overkill weapon designs.

Paul

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

I have designed expendable for the Andromedans (in my Star Trek adaptations) but made their transporter bombs not really powerful. Maybe that's one more problem with designing your ships the way you want. It can lead to abuse... wink

Marc

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

FWIW, the 0.20 multiplier only affects the space of an expendable weapon -- combat ratings are affected based on the size of the ship:

Very Small = 50%
Small = 33%
Medium = 25%
Large = 20%
Very Large = 17%

Note that these values have remained unchanged since at least Starmada X.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

I play with BeowulfJB and that person made this NON-Exp ship:

Shadow Zone ASSUALTER-class Deathrider  (141)
ARMOR           
HULL    [_][_][_][_][_]  [_][_][_][_][_]   [_][_][_][_]
THRUST    [9][6][5][3][2]       WEAPONS    [_][1][2][3][4]
  ECM    [_][_][_][_][_]        SHIELDS    [_][_][_][_][_]
   Fragile Systems
  WEAPONS                                  ARCS    RANGE    ATTACK DICE    -4         -6         -8    -10
4× Blackhole (Acr/Cts/Dx2/Sct/Slw)    [FR]    2-4-6             12    8    6    4    3    2    2    1    1    1    0    0

All he did was take off the Exp, Dx3 and 1 damage die. It is only 11 more points but still very effective. :!:

We are discussing how solve ships like this. Bigger ships are not the key. Any help for us here in Jacksonville?

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

You could make a house rule that a weapon can only have one "Damage Multiplier" trait from these.
Only one choice from Double Damage / Triple Damage / Catastrophic.
Not sure about adding Scatter to that.

May just be me but I do not combine these traits (not just because it cuts down the number of d6 needed) smile

Paul

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

i like the idea of allowing weapons to only have one damage modifer from {Dx2,Dx3,Cts}. 
:idea: Also, we could only allow Sct,Dfs,or Tls on weapons that don't have a damage modifier; or is that going too far?

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

That might be a bit too far.
My choice would be "Weapon may have three traits and be expendable but only one of the three traits may be chosen from [Double Damage / Triple Damage / Catastrophic]."

Paul

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

Sounds good.  Not sure if my gaming buddies will go for it tho. 
Another solution is to manuever more carefully.  I usually play one c500 point DN and some destroyers.  On turns when my friend moves and fires first, I will move the DN last, and keep it out of the narrow arc of destruction of my friend's attack-ships.  In fact, I can move it into a position where it can fire its range 18 weapons and pick off these smaller attack-ships.  This could work too...

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

BeowulfJB wrote:

Sounds good.  Not sure if my gaming buddies will go for it tho. 
:idea: Another solution is to manuever more carefully.

It would not really be any less than AE and probably more fun than "If I am in range I get to throw my bucket of D6's = your ship is toast". Maneuvering is fine if you get the chance. smile

I sometimes imagine rules writers churning out shed loads of D6 (and others) in their spare time and the odd bucket to put them in at the week end. lol

Paul

Re: We have begun using Expendable weapons...

We are playing on Thursday here in Jacksonville.  I will keep track of which ships I move where, and see what effect that has.
:idea: Manuevering may be just as important in this game as ship-designing.