Topic: Traits

Will we ever see an official return of the Ignores SHields and/or No Hull Damage traits?

I know a bunch of folks probably just groaned, but hear me out.  I know Ignores Shields seemed to have a bad rap in the last edition, but would it really be that much of a "gamebreaker" in Nova, given that ships can now also have Armor and/or ECM as defenses.  In SAE, it pretty much bypassed a ships only defensive capability.  That is no longer necessarily the case in Nova. 
And it appears that NHD is very workable with the alternate damage allocation rules. 

I ask because these two traits are great or modeling B5 ships (IS for lasers/beam weapons, NHD for Abbai comm disruptors.)

Re: Traits

None of my S;NE ships have shields so I guess that from my perspective, the No Shields weapon trait would be fine. 
I imagine that those folks whose ships have shields as their primary protection will be a bit annoyed if it became a wepon trait tho...
How would the proposed weapon trait "No Hull Damage" work?

Re: Traits

I see it as a possibility... but I have no plans to reintroduce them at the moment.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Traits

I never liked Ignore Shields. To me, it always seemed like a one-up trait, something you put on a ship only if you're facing ships that have shields. And I really don't like the thought of spending 1/2 my ships cost on shields, and you 100% ignore them with a single trait.
Piercing is fine to me, it already massively degrades the value of shields.

Re: Traits

Ignores Shields is sometimes useful for certain settings--for example, bekosh's Ironclad Armada had the spar torpedo and locomotive torpedo with Ignores 'Shields' because they did ignore the 'shields' of the ironclads. For weapons like that, they'd make sense. I also tended to use Ignores Shields for advanced powers for precisely the reason that some people hate it--that it meant your primary defence was null and void.

No Hull Damage, or other less-lethal weapons, would be perfect for some of my settings where the weapon in question is supposed to be exclusively for attacking fighters (I had a setting where light weapons were either small arms or bows), and having them being capable of inflicting damage on ships just seemed really unlikely...

Re: Traits

Personally, I think "piercing" gives enough of an "ignores shields" flavor, but I've never been one to tell people what they can or cannot do with their own Starmada settings.

If you wanted to have a weapon that cancels shields (abbreviated [xSh]?), I'd use an SU multiplier of x2.74.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Traits

cricket wrote:

Personally, I think "piercing" gives enough of an "ignores shields" flavor, but I've never been one to tell people what they can or cannot do with their own Starmada settings.

If you wanted to have a weapon that cancels shields (abbreviated [xSh]?), I'd use an SU multiplier of x2.74.

I know nobody asked my opinion, but here goes anyway  wink  I would rather there be a NHD trait than an ignores shields trait. I feel like that in many settings that I have come across there is a system/weapon that allows for subduing or otherwise incapacitating a vessel rather than destroying in. What about something like when a NHD weapon hits, rather than cross off a Hull box circle it or something. Once you reach the point where you would make damage checks (if it was "real" damage) do so regardless of the actual remaining Hull. Just a thought. I wants me some ion cannons!  lol
Cheers,
Erik

Re: Traits

I would say that I wante'd both!
And for all reasons said here. NHD can be very interesting for some settings (primary or energy  beams from starfire, for example), and IS is also used on some universes. And as already say, I don't feel it could be cheesy as there are two other défenses.
ECM can be reduced by scout, but there is still nothing that counteract, at least a bit, armor. I would think as a weapon that destroys two armor for each damage. That's just an idea to make all defense with a counter, but this is not as 'compulsory' as NHD.

Marc

Re: Traits

This posed a bit of a problem for me with my current setting. I've written some custom rules that revolve around crippling starships. Basically the rules allow you to make an "aimed shot" specifically at the Weapons, ECM, Shield, or Engine subsystems at greatly increased difficulty in an attempt to disable a ship for boarding or capture. Pirates and raiders factor heavily into my storyline so a way to cripple a ship without outright destroying it was pretty vital (you know, assuming the poor merchantmen didn't just surrender wink)

Re: Traits

Interesting,
How would these work?

Re: Traits

kalnaren wrote:

This posed a bit of a problem for me with my current setting. I've written some custom rules that revolve around crippling starships. Basically the rules allow you to make an "aimed shot" specifically at the Weapons, ECM, Shield, or Engine subsystems at greatly increased difficulty in an attempt to disable a ship for boarding or capture. Pirates and raiders factor heavily into my storyline so a way to cripple a ship without outright destroying it was pretty vital (you know, assuming the poor merchantmen didn't just surrender wink)

You have my undivided attention

Re: Traits

<copy/paste from my supplement manual>
--------------------
Crippling Shot

    Starships can (broadly) target specific systems on an enemy ship. This tactic is most often used by raiders to cripple potential prey that they can't convince to surrender outright.

-A crippling shot can only be made at close or medium range.
-A crippling shot can target one of Weapons, ECM, Shields, or Thrust.
-A crippling shot suffers an additional -2 attack modifier.
-A crippling shot attacking a ship's engines (thrust) can only be made through the target's AA (4-8) arc.

Resolve the attack as normal. Any [5] not stopped by the target's shields does damage as per the Effects of Damage rules. If any of the attack dice rolled came up [6], mark off one box on the targeted system, regardless of the amount of [6]s that were rolled. Any additional [6]s that were rolled score damage as normal.

Example:
    A ship targets an enemy vessel's engines using a Crippling Shot.
After applying all modifiers, it rolls five attack dice, coming up with [2],[4],[5],
[6],[6]. The defending ship makes a shield roll and does not stop any hits.
Two of the three hits are applied as normal damage. Because at least one of
the attack dice was a [6], one hit is directly applied to the target's Thrust
system.
--------------------

I'm still creating the supplement material so I haven't playtested the rule yet. If it proves too effective I may make it so even a roll of [5] misses, or increase the modifier to -3, etc. The idea though is that a crippling shot can only knock off 1 box per attack, so you shouldn't be able to blow off a ship's engines in a single salvo. I should probably add something about weapon restrictions as well, so only direct-fire weapons can do it or some such.

Re: Traits

Sounds interesting.  It seems that it is just as easy to score an engine or weapon hit on a huge 60 hull ship as on a 20 hull ship.  Just an observation.  Perhaps the larger the ship, the more 6s have to berolled to do the critical weapon or engine hit. 
:idea: This process could also be used to try to score an ECM or shield hit if the target has either of these.

Re: Traits

BeowulfJB wrote:

Sounds interesting.  It seems that it is just as easy to score an engine or weapon hit on a huge 60 hull ship as on a 20 hull ship.  Just an observation.  Perhaps the larger the ship, the more 6s have to berolled to do the critical weapon or engine hit. 
:idea: This process could also be used to try to score an ECM or shield hit if the target has either of these.

Indeed, you could really play with it to create some interesting dynamics (ECM systems, for example, should be significantly harder to hit than engines).

Re: Traits

Maybe you could make it a system instead of a weapon trait. This would prevent an over-saturation of system damage.

Re: Traits

It's actually not a weapon trait, it's simply an alternate type of attack you can make at any time. Most of the ships in my alternate universe are very small by most people's standards (25 hull would be a large ship, frigates are 5-8 hull). So by making this type of attack you're likely going to prolong the amount of time it takes to destroy a ship over a straightforward attack.

But, like I said, the rule hasn't been playtested yet, so it's all conjecture at the moment.

Re: Traits

Whoops
"25 hull would be a large ship, frigates are 5-8 hull"  :!:
My smallest BB has a CR of 450 and 37 Hull + 37 Armor.  My Largest ship has 60 Hull + 60 Armor and a CR of 850...
My friends & I played a 3200 point game last Saturday.  My Big 850 DN fired only once, and was destroyed the same turn it first fired.  The game took about 90 minutes to play.

Re: Traits

I was aiming for a more BFG-sized feel with mine (BFG had cruisers 8 HP, escorts had 1, BBs had 12) and I wanted to significantly restrict the weapons on the hulls so one-shotting is kept to a minimum. Cruisers are sitting around 250 points, escorts around 50, with most ships somewhere in between. Having said that I'm fairly unfamiliar with the Starmada system (I originally designed my game using my own system, but it was too clunky) so it may not work out as well in practise. I should really stop designing ships and go playtest more  tongue

Re: Traits

:idea: Perhaps making the change from BFG could involve tripling, or quadrupling, etc. the # of Hull points that the ship will have in S:NE.   This gives you the option to use Dx3 or Dx2 for more powerful weapons.

Re: Traits

If I was doing a direct conversion of BFG ships I might be tempted to do that (especially with BFG escorts -they had ONE hit point!). Funny enough, I realised yesterday I forgot a weapon trait on one of my weapons.. which meant redoing my entire fleet and resulted in ships being 1-3 hull larger anyway. Funny, that.

Re: Traits

Will you be posting the BFG to SNE conversions here on the forum?

Re: Traits

Absolutely, if I ever get around to doing them smile