• Registered: 2006-01-18
  • Posts: 90

Topic: Fighter Damage question

Ok, from the rules, Fighter damage is 'instantaneous'. I'm assuming this is to ease book-keeping about what got hit when and by who. That appears to be a pretty good way to handle it.

Here is my question: Are the explosions that occur from Fighter combat also 'instantaneous'? For simplicity, it makes sense, but it leads to some really...interesting...tactics.

For example, in our game last night, one of our players was moving Fighters in to wipe out a ship and using the explosion as cover from the other ships. Its quite easy to do, especially in 1500 point battles. But even in larger battles, it fairly easy to do if you have a little patience.

So, he was able to effectively wipe out a few ships here and there each turn while being shielded from return fire from the other ships. Since there is no limit on Fighter stacking, they just pile up in the 'protected' spaces. Without Fighters of your own, its impossible to 'get them out' of those spaces or surprise them with the ship movement. It really doesnt matter how careful you are, the Fighters can usually find some spot where killing a ship will offer them immunity. So unless you are limiting yourself to ships that cant possibly be killed in one turn....(and using Bombers or Assault or a combo can make that pretty difficult).

Now while we applauded the innovation, it seemed like it would be something that would be easy to abuse, and not a lot of fun to play against. A counter for it is to have Fighters of your own, but that just means in simplest terms that the Fighters, when using this tactic to dodge return fire, are too effective (ie, if you have to use 'x' to counter 'x', than 'x' is too powerful).

The obvious thing we thought of was that explosions that occur from Fighter combat do not block LOS till the end of the regular Combat Phase. This is a simple fix, but not 100% consistant with the Fighter rules. For my money, I'd rather it not be 100% consistant, but more balanced. Upon further thought, would still be reasonably consistant because explosions dont have to occur till the end of the combat phase in general...from any source.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 137

Re: Fighter Damage question

Yes, our group has discovered this abuse as well.  As the rules stand, your defense options are limited.  (Anime spinal cannons can shoot through explosions.)

I really like the idea of "ships don't actually explode until the end of the combat phase".

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Fighter Damage question

We have a solution that actually came out of an idea from our first vectored thrust style game....
We decided that the ships didn't explode immediately... that instead, you saw explosions ripping up and down the hull, and that at the beginning of following turns, you rolled a dice and added 2 ( cumulative, 2 on the first turn, 4 on the second, ect) and the total was 7 or greater, the ship finally exploded and created the explosion marker. However, during that time, the ship continued on it's current vector at it's last speed....... and the die roll for the explosion was rolled after movement was plotted........

This did result in a ship drifting into a hex with 3 light destroyers, and then exploding.... but was interesting.

Anyways.... the final result is that ships do not explode on the turn they are killed in our game, but at the very beginning of the next turn.
All ships destroyed at the end of last turn are replaced with explosion counters, movement orders are plotted, and the next turn begins.

John

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 287

Re: Fighter Damage question

that is a pretty cool idea.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Fighter Damage question

It keeps the fighters from swarming from ship to ship, while hiding behind ships they have already killed. We haven't had a problem with it in our games, but I can see where someone who uses swarms and swarms of fighters could abuse it........

Unfortunately, there is no rule system in the world that is totally proof against abuse. It would be nice to put in anti-cheese rules, but not practical. So far, the best way I have seen is to have everyone sit down and agree with what should be there.....

Anyways, the logic that we used, was that a large starship does not explode all at once.... That once it reaches a critical level of damage (zero hull), the crew starts abandoning ship..... meanwhile, the hull starts to break up, and systems start exploding, finallizing with a catastrophic explosion a few moments later.

With the vectored movement rules, it can get interesting, as the ship could, theoretically, continue for a bit and then explode.....

Although, I could see some abuse of this as well....... sigh......

John

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Fighter Damage question

Uncle_Joe wrote:

The obvious thing we thought of was that explosions that occur from Fighter combat do not block LOS till the end of the regular Combat Phase. This is a simple fix, but not 100% consistant with the Fighter rules. For my money, I'd rather it not be 100% consistant, but more balanced. Upon further thought, would still be reasonably consistant because explosions dont have to occur till the end of the combat phase in general...from any source.

It sounds like the greater issue is explosions providing cover for fighters, and not necessary when explosions occur, since Sunbursts can be used for the same effect.

Personally, I don't see the problem. I don't agree with the premise that "if you have to use X to counter Y, then Y is too powerful". With a game like Starmada -- as has been discussed on other topics, like LRS/Stealth -- you are going to have situations where a counter is absolutely necessary.

Think of it in 'historical' terms... there are numerous examples where a new tactic/technology was invincible until someone came up with a counter. If you walk into a battle not knowing what your opponent has at his disposal, then you are at risk of such an imbalance -- but then, so is he with you.

To deal with this, I've been wondering if it wouldn't be interesting to run "tournament" games as a two-stage affair. Run the first game without restrictions; however, the loser of the first game has the chance to completely revise his fleet, while the winner has to stick with his original force. Then play the second game. The overall winner is determined by aggragate VPs.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-18
  • Posts: 90

Re: Fighter Damage question

It sounds like the greater issue is explosions providing cover for fighters, and not necessary when explosions occur, since Sunbursts can be used for the same effect.

IIRC, Sunbursts are fired during the End Phase, so they dont allow the same tactic. Vs Sunbursts, if the Fighters can fire at the ship, the ships can fire back. Not so when ships explode during the Fighter phase. This tactic allows the Fighters to hit the ships, but by the time the ships get a chance to return fire, the LOS is blocked.

Personally, I don't see the problem. I don't agree with the premise that "if you have to use X to counter Y, then Y is too powerful". With a game like Starmada -- as has been discussed on other topics, like LRS/Stealth -- you are going to have situations where a counter is absolutely necessary.

Out of curiousity, what would you suggest as a counter to this tactic that doesnt involve Fighters (or Drones, which are really just one-shot Fighters). I can't envision anything that regular ships can do to overcome this short of just not using smaller ships (and even that is no guarantee). And once you go down that path, things start to be a lost less interesting IMO.

To deal with this, I've been wondering if it wouldn't be interesting to run "tournament" games as a two-stage affair. Run the first game without restrictions; however, the loser of the first game has the chance to completely revise his fleet, while the winner has to stick with his original force. Then play the second game. The overall winner is determined by aggragate VPs.

That would make for an amusing Tournament. I think I'd rather be the person losing round 1 because its probably not too difficult to come up with something that can beat almost anything if you know exactly whats coming. smile

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 359

Re: Fighter Damage question

Yes, because the issue appears to be that the fighters attack a small ship and kill it during the fighter phase. This immedietely puts an explosion on the board, which blocks line of site. If the fighters are behind it, in relation to the enemy, then they can't be fired on.... Next round, the fighters move up.

There is nothing to stop someone from stacking 6 wings of fighters in one hex, and rolling 36 dice against every target, while halving their shields......

One of the reasons that our ships only explode at the end of the turn.......

The other option would be to always run your smaller ships in groups, so that no matter where the fighters are, there is someone with LOS, or to field large numbers of fighters yourself..... at that point, all you would have is two carriers on opposite ends of the board, and swarms of fighters in the middle, with a "may the best dice win" feel to the game.....

At least in my opinion.

John

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 137

Re: Fighter Damage question

Nahuris wrote:

Yes, because the issue appears to be that the fighters attack a small ship and kill it during the fighter phase. This immedietely puts an explosion on the board, which blocks line of site. If the fighters are behind it, in relation to the enemy, then they can't be fired on.... Next round, the fighters move up.

There is nothing to stop someone from stacking 6 wings of fighters in one hex, and rolling 36 dice against every target, while halving their shields......

One of the reasons that our ships only explode at the end of the turn.......

The other option would be to always run your smaller ships in groups, so that no matter where the fighters are, there is someone with LOS, or to field large numbers of fighters yourself..... at that point, all you would have is two carriers on opposite ends of the board, and swarms of fighters in the middle, with a "may the best dice win" feel to the game.....

Yes, this has been precisely our problem.

It's not just that explosions provide cover for fighters.  It's that explosions provide cover from behind which fighters can move during the fighter phase, attack, and then (by creating a new explosion) be behind cover again by the time starships get to fire.

Incidentally, I think there's a difference between

Uncle_Joe wrote:

if you have to use 'x' to counter 'x', than 'x' is too powerful

and

cricket wrote:

if you have to use X to counter Y, then Y is too powerful

The latter case is a sort of rock-paper-scissors mechanism, which can be interesting.  The former makes the game about x -- whoever brings the most x wins.  While Starmada has variant fighter types, it's about starships -- that's where all the interesting rules are.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,286

Re: Fighter Damage question

IMO I think waiting til the end phase for the ship to actually explode is a nice touch.  For storyline type effect the wait so long mechanic is rather coolish.  Reminds me of the Martian fleet in Spaced Invaders after the Arcturans kicked their lil green hineys.  :mrgreen:

It still lets the fighters kick butt yet removes the 'nyah nyah can't touch us' effect...which I'm more than sure can be quite frustrating.