• Registered: 2005-11-07
  • Posts: 23

Topic: C-plus guns

this is adapted from Flying Buffalo's Berserker boardgame, which is based on Fred Saberhagen's books. 

C-plus guns

    C-plus guns are weapons that launch a large chunk of metal containing a C-plus (i.e., hyperdrive) drive engine. After traveling 3 hexes from the platform that has launched it, the C-plus drive engine activates and the metal begins to skip in and out of relativistic space-time like a stone skipping across a lake surface.
    A C-plus projectile must travel in a straight line along a row of hexes. After the C-plus projectile travels the initial 3 hexes, roll one die and divide the result by 2 (round up). The projectile will then move that many more hexes (i.e., 1-3) in relativistic space-time before entering hyperspace and skipping two hexes. The projectile then re-enters relativistic space-time for one hex only and then skips two more hexes. This pattern continues until the projectile hits something (see below) or exits the map.
    Anything in a hex where the C-plus projectile is in relativistic space-time is considered a target and can be hit. A C-plus projectile has a to-hit of 3+, ROF and PEN values of 1, and DMG as follows: If the projectile has not yet made its first C-plus jump, its DMG value is equal to the number of hexes it has traveled, including the hex the target is in. Once the C-plus projectile begins to skip in and out of relativistic space-time it has a DMG value of 10.
    C-plus projectiles will not destroy each other if they occupy the same hex. Once a C-plus projectile hits a target, the projectile is destroyed. If there are multiple targets in a hex, randomly determine which one the projectile attacks.

Cost: [provisionally, as Spinal Mount]
   
notes:
these are intended to be mounted on a dedicated platform with Engines 2, Hull ~4, Sheilds ~3, and no other armament. the idea is to use them against targets of Hull 14+. basically a big space cannon for blasting space fortresses or super-battleships. they are subject to Q hits.

so, what cost would you assign them? and would you let them in your game?

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: C-plus guns

chaos_engineer wrote:

Cost: [provisionally, as Spinal Mount]

Well, I'd want to test it first, but I think that may be over-valuing the weapon.

First of all, the limitation of firing down a hex row is a HUGE drawback. You're limiting your choice of targets tremendously -- without taking into account the random nature of being able to skip in and out at the right time to hit somebody who does happen to be on that row. Finally, on a stationary platform, these weapons would be all but useless; I'll just keep my moving targets off your six hexrows and you can't fire.

Finally finally, the cost of a spinal mount varies with the size of the ship; this has a flat value (either 1, 2, 3 or 10 for the DMG) independent of ship size. That also will affect the cost.

At the very least, I would allow the weapon to be fired along a straight line that isn't defined by a hexrow (a la the diagram in the book for the Anime-style spinal mount). Then, I would cost the weapon like this:

1. Assume a max range of 30 hexes.

2. Over a 30-hex distance, the chance that the weapon will be in real space on any given hex is roughly 50% (actually, between 51 and 52%). Thus, I wouldn't even give the weapon a to-hit value; if it lands in a hex containing a target, it's an auto-hit.

3. Over that same 30-hex distance, the average DMG value is 9.2.

Thus, the point cost for the weapon would be (MPs + 30) x 4.6 (the DMG of 9.2 times the to-hit percentage of 50%).

Make sense?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: C-plus guns

cricket wrote:

Thus, the point cost for the weapon would be (MPs + 30) x 4.6 (the DMG of 9.2 times the to-hit percentage of 50%).

Okay. I'm aware that I screwed up in the previous post, so please ignore it. smile

I misread the intention of this weapon -- I failed to notice that the projectile was only in real space for 1 hex at a time following the initial 4-6 hex travel. In addition, I think a normal to-hit roll of 3+ is appropriate during that initial phase... once the projectile starts "skipping" I'd still make it an auto-hit if it appears in a hex with a valid target.

Therefore, the real point cost value should be:

(MPs + 30) x 3

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-11-07
  • Posts: 23

Re: C-plus guns

cricket wrote:

In addition, I think a normal to-hit roll of 3+ is appropriate during that initial phase... once the projectile starts "skipping" I'd still make it an auto-hit if it appears in a hex with a valid target.

it's funny you should say that, because in the Berserker boardgame c-plus guns do score auto-hits if they land in an occupied hex. i just wasn't sure that was consistant with the SX mechanics...but if you say so, it must be OK! :wink:

cricket wrote:

Therefore, the real point cost value should be:

(MPs + 30) x 3

sounds good to me. now if i could just figure out how to do a berserker...let's see, a 65km metal sphere is Hull...yikes!

  • Registered: 2005-03-30
  • Posts: 272

Re: C-plus guns

Thinking about the old Berserker boardgame still gives me the shudders.  Easily one of the most unbalanced games ever published, although Steve Jackson managed to patch it pretty successfully in a Space Gamer article.  I see Flying Buffalo is still selling it on their web site, down to $7.00 or so these days, even with "revised" rules.  They'll also sell you a counter sheet package deal for doing the "Stone Place" scenario...requires several hundred ships, of course.

Come to think of it, those counter sheets might actually be kind of handy for Starmada, if you play with counters and don't like making your own.

Your Starmada game mechanics sound about right for the artillery style C-Plus guns, but IIRC Saberhagen had them showing up as primary-battery weapons on heavy human ships in later years, long after the Stone Place fight.

Rich

  • Registered: 2005-11-07
  • Posts: 23

Re: C-plus guns

hundvig wrote:

Thinking about the old Berserker boardgame still gives me the shudders.

i'm really surprised at the degree of negativity this game evokes, especially over on sites like Boardgame Geek. my copy included an errata sheet and plays fine. imho, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. it's sure not as bad as some of the crap games SPI published.

hundvig wrote:

I see Flying Buffalo is still selling it on their web site, down to $7.00 or so these days, even with "revised" rules.

that could be because the map is screwed up. a printer error resulted in a misprinted map, which was why the rules had to be fixed.

hundvig wrote:

Your Starmada game mechanics sound about right for the artillery style C-Plus guns, but IIRC Saberhagen had them showing up as primary-battery weapons on heavy human ships in later years, long after the Stone Place fight.

true enough, and when Harry Silver decided to keep that concealed one the Space Force equipped his ship with he let himself in for more than a little trouble. smile

  • Registered: 2005-03-30
  • Posts: 272

Re: C-plus guns

chaos_engineer wrote:
hundvig wrote:

Thinking about the old Berserker boardgame still gives me the shudders.

i'm really surprised at the degree of negativity this game evokes, especially over on sites like Boardgame Geek. my copy included an errata sheet and plays fine. imho, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. it's sure not as bad as some of the crap games SPI published.

I'd love to know what the errata is, I've got the first version and I've never seen the Berserker win in a dozen games.  There's also the fact that the basic game is rather obviously derived from Ogre, which is a sore point for a lot of people.  And especially painful since Ogre's balance between different types of units is so good, while Berserker is utterly dominated by C-Plus Guns.

That said, yeah, SPI did publish a lot of bad games.  They had their prizes, but there were some real turkeys, even allowing for the different standards of the era.

Rich

  • Registered: 2005-11-07
  • Posts: 23

Re: C-plus guns

hundvig wrote:

I'd love to know what the errata is, I've got the first version and I've never seen the Berserker win in a dozen games.

once i get my scanner working again i'll e-mail you a copy of the errata, although just giving the humans fewer ships to begin with would probably solve that problem.

hundvig wrote:

There's also the fact that the basic game is rather obviously derived from Ogre, which is a sore point for a lot of people.  And especially painful since Ogre's balance between different types of units is so good, while Berserker is utterly dominated by C-Plus Guns.

Ogre is definitely a better game. i just think that while Berserker may not be first rate, it also isn't "teh suxxor". smile

as for doing a berserker in SX, the best i've come up with is something like the way SFB does the Planet Killer. by that i mean giving it a few hundred hit-points, a shield rating, several 1/1/1 weapons per hexside, and rolling 2d6 on a hit location chart for damage. not entirely satisfying, but i haven't been able to come up with a better way to do it yet. any ideas?