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mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → A 15-hour drive will make you think of strange things...
...but I'm wondering...
Is there value in taking Starmada and going "retro"?
i.e., take the game back to its roots and see what happens with a revised version of Starmada 1.0?
Just an idle rumination...
I'd change the name to avoid confusion with S:X, but the 1.0 version had some neat ideas. If nothing else the heroic officers thing was cool.
Hmmm...maybe adapt it to be the framework for Space Fleet Omega? 
Rich
Hmmm...maybe adapt it to be the framework for Space Fleet Omega?
Not bad... although that would mean giving up the Iron Stars conversion.
Hmm... choices, choices.
Well, that project hasn't seen the light of day yet anyway...or maybe you could crib the "officer" rules from S:1.0 and stuff them into IS:SFO in modified form. The genre would seem an obvious one for that sort of thing.
Come to think of it, heroic officer rules for both standard Starmada and IS would be nice, too.
Rich
I've got a copy of 'Space Fleet Omega' that's got "Cannon Value", "Missile Value", "Thrust" "Defense", and "Save" as ship stats....
It was on my computer at work, and was saved from annihilation in the great crash of '06...looks more like BFG, without 'turrets' or special weapons...
I thought it was a bit simplistic, but workable.
I like the idea of using the Iron Stars mechanics for SFO, and would like to see the MJ12 stable of games to be more 'connected'...but I like the idea of a simpler spaceship game. Actually, I'd like it to be triangulated somewhere between Iron Stars, a simplified Starmada, and the 'BFG clone' I've got....
I liked the rules for 'Spitting Fire' as far as being able to field 60 ships, which seems to me to be in scale with the engagements you'd expect in Space Fleet Omega....
Spitting Fire as a starting point, with the d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 of Iron Stars for penetration mechanic? Add in some 'special weapons' and a 'point defense' usable vs fighters and missiles?
Defensive rating is armor/shields.....
Hits, easy....
Threshold loss of systems similiar to FT:
1/2 damage - 1/2 move value(s), 1/2 the secondaries and primaries go.
3/4 damage - ???
No points left, ship inert....
Roll a d10 at each level, 3 or less, ship goes 'boom'...
Weapons:
Main guns, Secondary/defensive guns, Point Defense, Specials
'Specials' are limited by ship size:
size 1-2, none - these are basically gunboats....
size 3-5, one 'small' special system:
Command Deck, Shuttle Deck, Scrambler, Keel Gun
size 6-9, two small, or one large system:
(large sys's) - Long Range Sensors, Enhanced Command Deck, Fighter Bay, Spinal Cannon, Laboratory
yada...yada...yada...
No artifical top end to size! To hit 'plus' as ship size goes up.... cube root of size=signature
..edit...
to hit:
Fire Control is rated d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 just like guns, but FC is WORSE with higher dice types. Roll below the signature value to hit.
If hit is indicated, roll gun dice indicated, roll OVER armor to damage.
..end edit...
'Special Characters' used to negate effect of things like loosing guns, engines:
Engineer
Weapons
Marines
Helmsman
..etc...
..the ability to tack on SIMPLISTIC boarding and ground combat mechanics....
Defensive fire vs missiles for SFO, if staying with the anime style space opera, would require at least two levels. The first would be the use of counter missiles at 'long' range with point defense clusters being used for terminal approach defense.
Use 'secondaries' vs missiles at long range, pt defense at short range....
I'm thinking that you'd not track individual missiles:
- launch a salvo - rated by d4,d6, etc....three values for missiles: Evasion, number per flight, Warhead penetration. Mark off a salvo on the ship sheet.
- missiles fired from short range(, or labeled as 'ultra fast') cannot be hit by secondaries.
- secondaries may fire at ANY missiles or fighters in range, point defense can only fire at 'incoming' missiles.
For example: d6/d12/d8 - evade/number/penetration
- secondary fire at missiles, both missiles and secondaries roll, higher number indicates winner.
- if missiles are lower, missiles loose a number of missiles equal to the secondary battery's roll. If missiles roll higher, no effect.
- Point defense may fire at ANY incoming missiles, same procedure as secondaries.
- roll for the number of missiles that hit ('number' value), subtract the number that are destroyed by secondary and pt defense fire.
- for each missile that makes it to the target, roll 'penetration' value.
- each point of 'penetration' in excess of armor/defense/screens is a point of damage scored on target.
- you could get even MESSIER, with warheads of various types at this point...
:-)
Nukes - d12 per penetration?
..ooh, and you can fire ALL of the missiles in your box of tricks at one time.
:-)
Todd, ya better come up with a mod for 'robotechy' mecha with this, once we come up with some sorta scale.....
..ooh..
And why limit the 'number of warheads' to a single die?
For example: (evade/number/penetration)
d4/5d12/d6
d6/3d10/d8
d8/4d6/d10
..better have some 'antimissiles' and REALLY good point defense/secondaries...
..is this over the top?
..ooh, and you can fire ALL of the missiles in your box of tricks at one time.
:-)
Todd, ya better come up with a mod for 'robotechy' mecha with this, once we come up with some sorta scale.....
Might be easier to do an individual design system for SFO than trying to use the Wardogs engine for such. After all...we're talking a LOT of missiles packed on as well as blast rifles and hand cannons. :wink:
I'm thinking that the really huge missile volleys will be pretty costly on the ships, so you're dumping a HUGE amount of money out the door when you launch. Cost and the amount of space they take up should more than compensate for being able to throw a **itload of warheads at someone...
For mecha, I'm not thinking about a subsystem, just a way to convert the Wardogs designs to something that works in SFO....
Like you did for Starmada - they're essentially slow fighters with an extra ability.
Hmmm.. anyone wanna tackle fighters for SFO?
:-)
I'm wondering if my vowel movement is over with...
and would like to see the MJ12 stable of games to be more 'connected'...
I don't think I'd want to see this at all, as I'm not real fond of IS to start with.
to hit:
Fire Control is rated d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 just like guns, but FC is WORSE with higher dice types. Roll below the signature value to hit.
If hit is indicated, roll gun dice indicated, roll OVER armor to damage.
..end edit...
Great minds think alike.
This is exactly the mechanic I'm trying to use for a new naval game I'm working on.
It's actually more of an Aeronef setting, but I'm going to make it work for wet navy stuff too.
Ship's sizes are die types, with the base to hit number of a ship equal to one half its die type.
Guns are d4 through d12.
The basic to hit roll is roll the die gun die type and rolling equal to or lower than the ship size.
Any gun dice that hit are then rerolled. A successful penetration roll is larger than the armor value.
So small guns hit smaller ships easier than large guns, while they don't penetrate as well.
The damage charts I'm using are similar to those in Assault Corps, with an extra half layer of damage boxes.
Kevin
That could work. Partially decoupling accuracy from hitting power would be an improvement over basic IS rules in my book. OTOH, Stamada:SFO wouldn't be a bad thing either, especially with suitable tweaks to make it more anime.
thedugan wrote:and would like to see the MJ12 stable of games to be more 'connected'...
I don't think I'd want to see this at all, as I'm not real fond of IS to start with.
Yes, it's not your cup of tea....
I'm a great fan of the 'overgame' concept, but it's not a REQUIREMENT, just something I'd like to see before I leave this dusty sphere.....
:-)
thedugan wrote:to hit:
Fire Control is rated d4,d6,d8,d10, and d12 just like guns, but FC is WORSE with higher dice types. Roll below the signature value to hit.
If hit is indicated, roll gun dice indicated, roll OVER armor to damage.
..end edit...Great minds think alike.
This is exactly the mechanic I'm trying to use for a new naval game I'm working on. It's actually more of an Aeronef setting, but I'm going to make it work for wet navy stuff too. Ship's sizes are die types, with the base to hit number of a ship equal to one half its die type.
Why is ship SIZE a die type?
Guns are d4 through d12.
The basic to hit roll is roll the die gun die type and rolling equal to or lower than the ship size.
Any gun dice that hit are then rerolled. A successful penetration roll is larger than the armor value.
Yes, that's pretty close to what I'm promoting mechanics-wise....
So small guns hit smaller ships easier than large guns, while they don't penetrate as well. The damage charts I'm using are similar to those in Assault Corps, with an extra half layer of damage boxes.
Kevin
Hmmm.... have to look over Defiance again...
I'm thinking that you'd divide the number of hull points by the number of 'specials', and every time you hit that number of damage points, you roll to take out a special system....
Hmmm.. but that doesn't address mains, secondaries, and point defenses...maybe include those. I need to make a list of systems and a spreadsheet....
Maybe a flat chance of loosing something every time damage gets past the defenses...8+ on a d10?
What special systems should be included in this version of Space Fleet: Omega?
That could work. Partially decoupling accuracy from hitting power would be an improvement over basic IS rules in my book. OTOH, Stamada:SFO wouldn't be a bad thing either, especially with suitable tweaks to make it more anime.
I like this version for two reasons....
1- I wrote it, or at least, I'm promoting it....
:-)
2 - I think that the dice type = penetration mechanic is just too freakin' cool NOT to use.
A third reason is that I'd like to cut down on the number of dice rolls - Starmada is a dice-queen's dream. Nothin' wrong with d6's, they just limit the number of ships you can handle.
I would like to cut down the sheer amount of STUFF you have to do, in order to maximize the amount of ships one can play. I'd love to get it to something like Spitting Fire in terms of the number of units in play. The main problem is that 'Starship Combat' means different things to different people, and SOME of the junk from SFB is almost a requirement in order to maximize it's appeal to a larger audience.
Why is ship SIZE a die type?
Because that's how damaged is determined.
Let's take a size d4 ship.
There are four columns of hit boxes, with the first layer being a full layer (four boxes across).
The second layer is one half that of the first.
The third layer is one box, that being the ship is destroyed.
So damage bleeds from top to bottom, and is variable. A d4 ship has a maximum total of seven hits it can take before being destroyed (four boxes on the first layer, two on the second, and the final box on the third layer). The minimum number of hits would be three. The curve between the minimum number of hits and the maximum number of hits should form a bell curve, with an "expected" number of hits at the top of the curve.
Weapons, equipment, etc, are assigned to these boxes. As the boxes are crossed off, anything in these boxes is destroyed.
Taking our d4 ship, let's say it suffers one hit of damage. For a location, a d4 is rolled with a 2 resulting.
The first box in column two is marked off, and any guns, equipment, etc, in that box are destroyed. Now a second hit is sustained. If another two is rolled, the second layer would be affected, while a result of 1, 3, or 4 would still be up on the first layer.
And so on.
I'm envisioning five basic ship sizes: d4, d6, d8, d10 and d12.
The ship size would also form the base chance of it being hit, that being one half the size.
Kevin
I've copied a 'rules summary' to the Space Fleet Omega section.
Cleaned them up a bit....
thedugan wrote:Why is ship SIZE a die type?
Because that's how damaged is determined.
Let's take a size d4 ship.
There are four columns of hit boxes, with the first layer being a full layer (four boxes across).
The second layer is one half that of the first.
The third layer is one box, that being the ship is destroyed.
So damage bleeds from top to bottom, and is variable. A d4 ship has a maximum total of seven hits it can take before being destroyed (four boxes on the first layer, two on the second, and the final box on the third layer). The minimum number of hits would be three. The curve between the minimum number of hits and the maximum number of hits should form a bell curve, with an "expected" number of hits at the top of the curve.
Weapons, equipment, etc, are assigned to these boxes. As the boxes are crossed off, anything in these boxes is destroyed.
Taking our d4 ship, let's say it suffers one hit of damage. For a location, a d4 is rolled with a 2 resulting.
The first box in column two is marked off, and any guns, equipment, etc, in that box are destroyed. Now a second hit is sustained. If another two is rolled, the second layer would be affected, while a result of 1, 3, or 4 would still be up on the first layer.
And so on.
I'm envisioning five basic ship sizes: d4, d6, d8, d10 and d12.
The ship size would also form the base chance of it being hit, that being one half the size.
Kevin
Huh, that's neat. What if you get a third '2' result? A second '4' result?
So, a 'd12' ship would have 12+6+3+1= 22 total hits?
I could see SFO using this, but I'd like bigger ships...
- 1d4, 2d4, 3d4, 4d4
- 1d6, 2d6, 2d6, 4d6 ..etc
4d4 would be 4-16, first row would be 13 hits in the first row.
13+6+3+1 = 24 hits
Maybe not four dice, perhaps only 2 or 3.
4d12 would be 4-48...
45+22+11+5+2+1 = 86 hits - The Death Star? Borg Cube?
..there might be some other 'matrixes' that could be used like this.
Huh, that's neat. What if you get a third '2' result? A second '4' result?
A third two would destroy the ship.
A second four would "bleed" to the second layer, and destroy any components in that box. I'm also debating whether to have the second layer always result in some sort of critical hit.
So, a 'd12' ship would have 12+6+3+1= 22 total hits?
Not exactly.
The way I'm handling it now is that a d12 ship would be: 12+6+1.
I could see SFO using this, but I'd like bigger ships...
- 1d4, 2d4, 3d4, 4d4
- 1d6, 2d6, 2d6, 4d6 ..etc
4d4 would be 4-16, first row would be 13 hits in the first row.
13+6+3+1 = 24 hits
You could also just stack 'em.
Meaning a 3d4 ship would be: 4+4+4+2+1.
So the number in front of the die type would represent the number of "primary" damage layers.
Kevin
thedugan wrote:
Huh, that's neat. What if you get a third '2' result? A second '4' result?A third two would destroy the ship.
A second four would "bleed" to the second layer, and destroy any components in that box. I'm also debating whether to have the second layer always result in some sort of critical hit.
I'd vote yes, since the third layer means the ship is toast, I always liked progressively greater results.
thedugan wrote:
So, a 'd12' ship would have 12+6+3+1= 22 total hits?Not exactly.
The way I'm handling it now is that a d12 ship would be: 12+6+1.
Ahh...I'd do 12-6-3, the ship dies when the last hit in the third column is gone.
thedugan wrote:
I could see SFO using this, but I'd like bigger ships...
- 1d4, 2d4, 3d4, 4d4
- 1d6, 2d6, 2d6, 4d6 ..etc
4d4 would be 4-16, first row would be 13 hits in the first row.
13+6+3+1 = 24 hitsYou could also just stack 'em.
Meaning a 3d4 ship would be: 4+4+4+2+1.
So the number in front of the die type would represent the number of "primary" damage layers.
Kevin
..or 3+ d4, or d4 +3...
Each tech level adds to the number of layers you can add...Hmmm, I might borrow some derivative of this for SFO. Must allow the subconscious to mull this over.
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