• Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Topic: New points system for your perusal

As of right now, I am freezing the point formula unless there's a huge outcry.

________________________________

Okay, Zerloon has me inspired today.

I rewrote the point formula. Well, at least I revised it. The basic idea is still there, square root of Orat * Drat but there's a significant change to commanders.

I assume and hope there will be questions. I can justify all the values mathematically, and for most I have in another post, but if you want to see my calculations, I will, of course post them for you to investigate. Please do check me out, especially you statisticians out there, I am not a professional mathematician so my calculations need as much help as they can get.

[size=200]Unit Cost[/size]

[size=134]Combat Value [/size]
(ORat * DRat * SpecialMultiplier)^0.5 ** Change back to ^0.5 **

[size=134]SpecialsProduct[/size]
Product of all Specials Multipliers

[size=134]ORat[/size]
(Movement + 1) * MeleeMultiplier + (RangedMultipler * Range ^ 1.25)

[size=134]DRat[/size]
DefenseMultiplier * Wds * MoraleMultiplier

[size=134]SpecialMultiplier[/size]
MagicMultiplier * QtyMagicDice * SpecialsProduct * UnitTypeMultiplier

The tables are as follows:

[size=134]Specials Multipliers [/size]
same as FtM I, we'll deal with those if we see huge disparities in practice. I can't say as I've ever seen one that really was too far off.

[size=134]Multipliers[/size]
MeleeMultiplier

1d4     1.3       
1d6     1.5       
1d8     2.0       
1d10    2.5       
1d12    3.0       
2d4     2.0       
2d6     3.0       
2d8     4.0                                               
2d10    5.0                                               
2d12    6.0                                               
3d4     4.0                                               
3d6     6.0                                               
3d8     8.0                                               
3d10   10.0                                               
3d12   12.0                                               

RangedMultipler

1d4     0.65     
1d6     0.75     
1d8     1.0     
1d10    1.25   
1d12    1.5     
2d4     1.0     
2d6     3.0     
2d8     4.0     
2d10    5.0     
2d12    6.0     
3d4     4.0     
3d6     6.0     
3d8     8.0     
3d10   10.0     
3d12   12.0     

UnitTypeMultiplier   

Artillery        1.25
Cavalry          2.00
Infantry         1.00
Monster Size 1   1.00
Monster Size 2+  1.25
Personality      1.00

DefenseMultiplier

    0      1     
    1      7     
    2     15     
    3     25     
    4     50     
    5    100     
    6    200     

  MoraleMultiplier  *** Significant Change here ***

     1+  10         
     2+   9         
     3+   8         
     4+   7         
     5+   6         
     6+   5                       
     7+   4                       
     8+   3                       
     9+   2                       
    10+   1                       

I flattened the curve here because I felt like there wasn't enough of a difference between a 3+ and a 7+.

MagicMultiplier
(1 + MagicRange) * MagicValue

MagicValue
   d4   3.75   
   d6   5.25   
   d8   6.75   
  d10   8.25   
  d12   9.75   

[size=200]Command[/size] *** Significant change here ***
I changed it back the the old way, again, but made Movement part of the formula.

CmdPointValue
CmdMultipler ^ NumberCmdDice * (CmdRange * (CmdRange + Movement)) + 1

CmdMultipler
d4    2.5
d6    3.5
d8    4.5
d10    5.5
d12    6.5

  • Registered: 2006-08-07
  • Posts: 161

Re: New points system for your perusal

Hmm, I'd have to play around with this in a spreadsheet before I could actually give an asessement.

  • Registered: 2006-10-02
  • Posts: 44

Re: New points system for your perusal

I beg for pardon, but I don't understand how work Command points... could you do an example?

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

Surely, take, for example the Boreal Large Horde

1 Horde Master (General) 84
1 Hero (Personality) 56
1 Hero (Personality) 42
1 Shaman of K'Syaad (Personality) 216
1 Warriors (8 Elements) 584
1 Warriors (6 Elements) 438
1 Javelins (6 Elements) 696
1 Horse Warriors (8 Elements) 1224
1 Zealots (5 Elements) 610
2 War Mammoths (Monster 3) 424
1 Yeti (Monster 2) 123
1 Giant Polar Bear (Monster 1) 63
4,560

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/8 CmdValue = 54.4
Hero 1 d6/8 CmdValue = 22.4
Hero 2 d8/8 CmdValue = 27.2

Total = 104
# units = 13

104 / 13 = 8

8 x 4560 = 36480 force total

okay, maybe some of the values need a little adjusting, but that's how I envisioned it.

I guess the commanders force multiplier will have to go back to the drawing board wink

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

jimbeau wrote:

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/8 CmdValue = 54.4
Hero 1 d6/8 CmdValue = 22.4
Hero 2 d8/8 CmdValue = 27.2
Total = 104
# units = 13
104 / 13 = 8
8 x 4560 = 36480 force total
okay, maybe some of the values need a little adjusting, but that's how I envisioned it.
I guess the commanders force multiplier will have to go back to the drawing board wink

It seems like you're making this way harder than it needs to be.
wink
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

and your suggestion is...

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

jimbeau wrote:

and your suggestion is...

Let me crunch a few numbers to see if what I'm thinking will work actually does work.
I'll get back to you.
Kevin

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

underling wrote:
jimbeau wrote:

and your suggestion is...

Let me crunch a few numbers to see if what I'm thinking will work actually does work.
I'll get back to you.
Kevin

Refresh my memory...
What is the maximum number of command dice a commander can have?
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

They range from d4 to 2d12 (though theoretically there's no limit)

I'm looking for a way to value commanders in their effect on the force as a whole.

Remember that in FtM II any unit can move once for free (if they don't accept points from commanders)

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

jimbeau wrote:

They range from d4 to 2d12 (though theoretically there's no limit)
I'm looking for a way to value commanders in their effect on the force as a whole.
Remember that in FtM II any unit can move once for free (if they don't accept points from commanders)

If every unit can move at least once, even with the restriction of not being able to receive command points, then I'd cap the number of command dice a command stand can have (and probably have that cap at 2d12).
I'll run some numbers using the assumption that command dice are capped at 2d12.
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

that would be very cool.

  • Registered: 2006-10-02
  • Posts: 44

Re: New points system for your perusal

Ok, now I understand (maybe  lol ).

I'm sorry but I totally disagree, with this method Commanding units have different cost depending of number of units, a real pain in the... well you know were I mean.

Maybe you can devise a hero level, so hero level 1 (captain) can have only 1 dice of command and muster up to X units (5?), hero level 2 (sub general?) can have 2 dice of command and muster X hero level 1 (2?) and so on...

Or maybe not, but please keeo thing simple, isn't possible recalculate point cost for every battle  :shock:

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

Zerloon wrote:

I'm sorry but I totally disagree, with this method Commanding units have different cost depending of number of units, a real pain in the... well you know were I mean.
Or maybe not, but please keeo thing simple, isn't possible recalculate point cost for every battle  :shock:

I agree.
I'm not sure why the cost for a command die should be tied to the size of a force. But I haven't spent very much time with this point cost system either.
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

Zerloon:

I thought it was simple. kind of a simplified method of the defiance formula.

Kevin:
The cost of the commanders is related to the size of the force because the effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of the commanders.

Anyway, that's where I'm headed.

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

jimbeau wrote:

Kevin:
The cost of the commanders is related to the size of the force because the effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of the commanders.

Part of the statement above is true.
The effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of its commanders.
However, the quality of a commander doesn't increase simply because the size of a force it's commanding increases.
That's faulty logic.
The quality of a commander is shown in reality by one value; the number of command points it can generate. That quality doesn't increase just because the point cost of an army increases from 2000 to 4000. A commander with a d6 for command is going to generate from 1 to 6 command points per turn whether it's in a force of 2000 or a force of 4000. The only difference in those two forces as far as a commander is concerned is that there are more units to spend the command points on.
Assuming, that is, that you don't have units in the larger force that costs more than the units in the smaller force.
But I don't see that as making the commander in the larger force more valuable.
I guess the beauty of point cost systems is that they are subjective to some degree though. So you can do whatever you want.
smile
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

The effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of its commanders.
However, the quality of a commander doesn't increase simply because the size of a force it's commanding increases.
That's faulty logic.

I actually said the effectiveness of a force is dependent on the quality of the commanders, a subtle but important difference. However, you are correct in that the size of the force has no effect on the quality of the commander. I just want the importance of command to be identified as such and mirrored in the points.

But I'm willing to listen to any suggestions at all.

  • Registered: 2006-10-02
  • Posts: 44

Re: New points system for your perusal

Here my suggestions:

1) Limit command guy.

Hero level Commander = command dice (d4-d6-d8-2d4)
Max 1 every X(3?) units.

Great Hero level Commander = command dice (d10-d12-2d6-2d8)
Max 1 every X(2?) Hero level commander.

Uber Hero Commander = command dice (2d10-2d12)
Max 1 every X(2?) Great hero commander.

In this manner you shuold not change point every time, but you have the right commander depending of the size of battle.


2) Reducing command guy

If every unit can doing one order without spending CP there is less need of commander. Maybe keep the cap of 2d12 is too. In our battles two commander with 2d6 can move a lot of people, and is'nt costly. I suggest to keep command dice at 1 dice, and fix a limit of command character (1 for every 1000 point?)

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

1) Too restrictive, imo.

2) Each unit may now take one command without spending CP from any commander. See my quote from an earlier post.

Still, I want command to make a difference. And I want command to affect the whole force. 

Hmm. how to do that.

how much more effective is a force with a d10 commander than with a d8 commander?


I suggest to keep command dice at 1 dice, and fix a limit of command character (1 for every 1000 point?)

Aren't you effectively making a commander worth a percentage of the force at this point?

if you say commanders are 1 per 1000 points, then you're saying the commander is worth x/1000 of the force.

  • Registered: 2006-10-02
  • Posts: 44

Re: New points system for your perusal

how much more effective is a force with a d10 commander than with a d8 commander?

Not many, but there is no need of an huge difference. IMHO.

Aren't you effectively making a commander worth a percentage of the force at this point?

Yes and No tongue.

The pratical problem is that Commander should have a cost that reflect theyre abilities, no matter how many units they goes to command. This is to avoid unnecessary complications when you choose you're force. So, giving a cost and saying there can be one every 1000 points can solve the problem, in an abstract way I agree, but if works...

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

I put together an Excel spreadsheet that shows relative commander worth with respect to command dice. This would probably be my starting point for determining commander effectiveness and point cost.
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

Zerloon wrote:

The pratical problem is that Commander should have a cost that reflect theyre abilities, no matter how many units they goes to command. This is to avoid unnecessary complications when you choose you're force. So, giving a cost and saying there can be one every 1000 points can solve the problem, in an abstract way I agree, but if works...

It just seems arbitrary, that's all. What if my force is made up of 5000 points and each unit had "Disciplined". Maybe I'd want one or two commanders to bolster any individual units when they get poor rolls, but there's really no need to have the commanders there.

Then, imagine they're fighting a 5000 point force with mostly "Undisciplined" units. I might take extra commanders in this case.

As soon as we dictate the force construction, I'm afraid we'll need to make all sorts of concessions for individual problems that causes. And, at some level, then all the armies become the same.

You know the orcs are under-represented by commanders, there's simply not enough Orcs who want to risk their lives for command, but it makes them more interesting to command that way.

There should be a mathematical answer to this, hopefully Kevin will attach his spreadsheet so we can look at it (hint, hint)

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: New points system for your perusal

jimbeau wrote:
Zerloon wrote:

It just seems arbitrary, that's all. What if my force is made up of 5000 points and each unit had "Disciplined". Maybe I'd want one or two commanders to bolster any individual units when they get poor rolls, but there's really no need to have the commanders there.
There should be a mathematical answer to this, hopefully Kevin will attach his spreadsheet so we can look at it (hint, hint)

In my opinion, a lot of point cost sytem construction *is* subjective and arbitrary. You can use math to a degree, but there's always going to be a certain percentage of point costing that might still be math based, but is also subjective.
The spreadsheet I came up with is very simple, but might be a good place to start with showing relative worth of command dice. And your point system might actually already reflect what I have found.
Hmmm...
I can't seem to add an Excel file as an attachment.
I'll just send it to Jim and he can figure it out.
big_smile
Kevin

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

Kevin sent this in an email, and I actually came up with the same numbers

> Jim,
> I'll send you the XL sheet on Monday, but I can probably remember what I found from my little experiment.
> I believe the following is where I'd start with respect to point costing command point dice.
>
> Command dice    0d4    1d4    1d6    1d8    1d10    1d12
> Cost multiplier    x1.0    x2.5    x3.5    x4.5    x5.5    x6.5
>
> Command dice    2d4    2d6    2d8    2d10    2d12
> Cost multiplier    x5.0    x7.0    x9.0    x11.0    x13.0
>
> The above cost multipliers were found by averaging the probabilities of generating from 1 to 24 command points, and then setting the baseline at a x1.0 multiplier.
> Surprisingly enough, it works out to be the average roll for each dice roll.

So, now, I just have to figure out how this effects the force point totals.

I'm going to study Defiance now and se if I can steal ... er ... learn something from that force building system.

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: New points system for your perusal

okay, the defiance study proved fruitless. That system differs in so many ways from FtM both in scale and in implementation that I can't use any part of it without completely reworking the whole FtM system from the ground up.

Does anyone want that? Seriously, if someone wants to build a completely different point system, now is the time to speak your mind.

Now, I wanted to make commanders affect the entire force, but as a lower percentage, not a 10x multiplier

The ratio of points between the command dice is where I want to go with this one. please look at it and tell me where I've gone wrong. (I've purposely normalized it to d6)

CmdMultiplier
d4 .70
d6 1.0
d8 1.3
d10 1.6
d12 1.9

CmdrValue = CmdMultiplier * #Dice * (CmdRange / 8 )

CmdPointMultipler=
1 + sum of all CmdrValues / # units in force

Now take the Boreals above and here's what you get:

1 Horde Master (General) 84
1 Hero (Personality) 56
1 Hero (Personality) 42
1 Shaman of K'Syaad (Personality) 216
1 Warriors (8 Elements) 584
1 Warriors (6 Elements) 438
1 Javelins (6 Elements) 696
1 Horse Warriors (8 Elements) 1224
1 Zealots (5 Elements) 610
2 War Mammoths (Monster 3) 424
1 Yeti (Monster 2) 123
1 Giant Polar Bear (Monster 1) 63
4,560

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/8 CmdValue = 2
Hero 1 d6/8 CmdValue = 1
Hero 2 d8/8 CmdValue = 1.3

Total = 3.3
# units = 13

1 + 3.3 / 13 = 1.25

1.25 x 4560 = 5700 force total

Now what if you purposely take commanders with a shorter range to bring down the points.

say, the following

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/4 CmdValue = 1
Hero 1 d6/4 CmdValue = .5
Hero 2 d8/4 CmdValue = .65

total=2.15
# units = 13

1+2.15 / 13=1.17
1.17 x 4560 = 5335

Now what if you purposely take commanders with a Longer range to bring up the points.

say, the following

Command dice
Horde Master 2d6/20 CmdValue = 28
Hero 1 d6/20 CmdValue = 14
Hero 2 d8/20 CmdValue = 18

total=60
# units = 13

1 + 60 / 13=5.6
5.6 x 4560 = 25336

So, I would say, we COULD cap the command range to 12, but I say if you want to spend the points on range 20 commanders, you deserve a 560% multiplier.

Thoughts?

  • Registered: 2006-10-02
  • Posts: 44

Re: New points system for your perusal

Only one:

Basing the cost of commander by number of units is an unnecessary complications, and since not everyone have the time and will to recalculate the point cost of commander every time they prepare an army to a game with this choice you will lose some player.

Do you wish to laught?

Zer:"Hey Kassad, do you wish to play FtM saturday?"
Kassad:"Cool, how many points?"
Zer:"Well, 2000 wil be good, see ya".

Kassad: Ok... well, with this I have 12 units, so a commander will cost... X. Uhm, I still have point to spend, I can take another units of archer... Doh, I must recalculate points, so now is Y. Not good, I'll exceed points... so removing this unit commander return to X... ok... Oh, no I haven't so many archer... remove this, add some elements... ach I must recalculate again... where are excel spreadsheet? (ZOOOOT) Oh my, the light are off... so not pc, I shlud calculate point cost by mind?

Kassad:"Zer?"
Zerloon:"Yeah?"
Kassad:"For saturday... maybe can we play at monopoli..."


Ok, I'm ironic, and if you shoul not reconsider your tought I'll not insist anymore, but please let think at this.

Oh, I know that not everyone play wit exactly the same point cost and a little tolerance is due, but since some do keep in mind everyone big_smile