2,526

(41 replies, posted in Discussion)

As much as it pains me to agree with a Frenchman on ANYTHING, I must say the following quote from the Chevalier de Bacourt in 1840 about sums up my feelings from yesterday:

"Today is the great national holiday ... It is celebrated in every part of America, if not with suitable splendor at least with prodigious noise ... I have been kept awake since five o'clock this morning by the incessant noise of cannons and firecrackers. That is the American fashion of showing their satisfaction. To them, noise personifies joy."

Happy Birthday, America. smile

2,527

(40 replies, posted in Iron Stars)

STortorice wrote:

Anyway, I just want to offer our apologies once again.  God willing, this will never happen again.

What? I had to wait a few months for free publicity?

Shame on you!

smile

Seriously, no apologies necessary, and thanks for the review -- although Mr. Voysey nees to think about upping the grade. 7.8 out of 10, indeed... wink

2,528

(23 replies, posted in Game Design)

jimbeau wrote:

Finally, Irzi pushes my big red RANT button with "The big problem is that gamers are gaming for the sake of gaming. It's become just one more way to kill time between taking the kids to soccer games and having lunch with the wife/girlfriend. What has become of the days of hobbyists investing some time and artistic talent in the hobby? What has become of the gamer who participated in such martial fare not just for the opportunity to kill things, but to obtain a deeper insight into military history?"

Now Jim, remember... EVERYTHING was better in the old days. Cars, music, computers -- alright, maybe not computers. smile

Oh, wait... I've been gaming since the "old days" (at least the mid-80s, which I've always thought of as the heyday of wargaming) -- and I've always gamed for the sake of gaming; even when I was painting minis, I was gaming.

Sounds like Mr. Iski ? needs a bubble bath and a chill pill.

3) And "What has become of the gamer who participated in such martial fare not just for the opportunity to kill things, but to obtain a deeper insight into military history?"

He stopped bathing in 1972.

LOL!!!

Biggest laugh I've had in months... big_smile

Go to Origins, Jim. Have fun, represent MJ12 ... and game for the sake of gaming, goshdurnit!

2,529

(15 replies, posted in Discussion)

It would appear that "crap" is the only word in the word-censor list...

2,530

(15 replies, posted in Discussion)

jimbeau wrote:

However, can you give me another example (since you claim this is one of possibly many examples) of

how they took a perfectly cool race and decided, :oops: it -- we'll just give the Klingons all their attributes

Sorry, I was just referring to the Romulan --> Klingon transition... I can think of no other incidents in which this happened.

But daggone it, that's plenty! smile

2,531

(15 replies, posted in Discussion)

Watching the first episode of "Enterprise" (never seen it before). A bit miffed about the following comment:

"If we hadn't convinced them to let us take Klaang's corpse back to Kronos, Earth would most likely be facing a squadron of Warbirds by the end of the week."

This is just another example of how they took a perfectly cool race (the Romulans) and decided, fuck it -- we'll just give the Klingons all their attributes.

TOS Klings were warmongering bullies, not honorable warriors -- in the words of David Gerrold:

"Klingons are professional villains. They are nasty, vicious, brutal, and merciless. They don't bathe regularly, they don't use deodorants or brush their teeth ... Think of the Mongol Hordes with spaceships and ray guns. To the Klingons, Genghis Khan was a phony and Attila the Hun was a fairy. And Hitler was only a beginner ... Klingons build their battlecruisers without toilets; it makes them nastier. Kligons pick on old ladies. Klingons fart in air locks ... And those are their good points ...

"Besides, if Star Trek needs to tell a real war story, that's what the Romulans are for..."

And Klingons DEFINITELY don't fly warbirds -- at least until the ill-considered decision to give them some as of Star Trek III.

Don't get me wrong, there's room for both, and then some (and I did like that the Tholians, Andorians, Tellerites, heck, even a silly-looking CGI Gorn make it on Enterprise from time to time) -- but the producers' decision to start blurring the lines between the two (and ultimately shaft the Romulans on the deal -- ST: Nemesis was just silly; Remans, indeed...) was poorly made.

Rant mode off.

2,532

(0 replies, posted in Spitting Fire)

Picked up a starter box of A&A: War at Sea yesterday. Not impressed. sad

However, I did like the little fighter miniatures -- I was thinking if I could get enough of them it might make for a fun Spitting Fire scenario...

2,533

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Dont you always mutliply hullx2 before applying the shield and other modifiers?  Since defensive rating is based on hits-to-kill, which is usually going to be hullx2?

You are correct. I had left the x2 out initially because it's a constant.

2,534

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

japridemor wrote:

Does this look correct?

Yes.

2,535

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

OldnGrey wrote:

Sorry, I think I am getting confused, is the intention to allow a choice of how much armor is applied?

No need for apology -- I confuse myself quite often.

In a perfect world, I would allow the choice of how many armor points are selected. But, in response to Steven's question ("How would I determine the amount of armor on an existing design with armor plating?") I suggested a flat percentage of the hull size.

2,536

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

OldnGrey wrote:

Tried the SU calculation and it was giving different percentage required for each hull size.

That was the point, actually...

*shrug*

The idea was that the percentage would be constant when compared to the ratio of hull hits to armor hits; i.e., a hull 6 ship with 3 armor would spend the same percentage of its space as a hull 12 ship with 6 armor.

2,537

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

And it's even worse. According to some Monte Carlo simulations I ran in Excel, the actual ratio is closer to 1.6:1, which is 20% better than the 1.33:1 assumed in the rules.

Never mind. Steven was right.

And so was I, at least before I forgot. wink

The modifier for Armor Plating in the rulebook is in fact x1.5 (why didn't someone point this out before I got all queasy?)

2,538

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

Although it is a trivial point, I calculated that if you have armor plating, which  stops 1/3 of the hull hits you get c12 extra hull hits, not just eight.   (I have been teaching Math for 6 + years).

It's actually not a trivial point -- I'm quite disturbed... wink

And it's even worse. According to some Monte Carlo simulations I ran in Excel, the actual ratio is closer to 1.6:1, which is 20% better than the 1.33:1 assumed in the rules.

:arrow: Steven Gilchrist; Math Instructor; Jacksonville, Fla, USA

Yeah, yeah... we get it. big_smile

Seriously -- this has shaken me a bit...

2,539

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

My largest ship is my battleship "USS North Carolina".  It has heavy firepower, is speed 6,  and has 24 hull with armor plating.  If I make the armor plating represent Ablative armor, would this ship get six armor boxes instead of the c12 extra hull hits?  And would the CR cost be the same :?:    As the North Carolina stands now, it costs 1601.
:idea: (If I took 2 armor plating's, would I get 12 Ablative armor?<LOL>) :shock:

I don't know where you're getting the "12 extra hull hits" -- armor plating only saves hull on a 1/3 chance, so the average is 8 extra hits.

Either way, you have it correct. The cost will not be EXACTLY the same, but close enough.

And NO, you cannot take it twice. tongue

2,540

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

:idea: I have a simple way for me to do this:  How many boxes of ablative armor would a ship get, if "Armor plating" was taken as a Special Equipment, and used instead to generate ablative armor .

For the same effect, you would add 1/3 of your hull as ablative hits. However, this would not necessarily reflect the 'true' point cost... so... I would add one-quarter of your hull (go ahead and round up).

Thus, a hull-6 ship with ablative armor would get 1.5 (rounded up to 2) armor boxes.

2,541

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

I would set the cost of a point of armor at 50% of a hull point: i.e.,

(Hull + 9) * 5

This might be WAAY too much.

Consider that a ship with armor plating now can effectively get 33% of its hull size in "armor boxes" for a flat 5%. At the same time, I don't think ships should be able to get more armor than their base hull size. So...

SU cost should be:

(Armor/Hull)^2

Expressed as a percentage of total SUs.

For example a hull 12 ship with 5 armor points would require:

(5/12)^2 = 17.4%

2,542

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

OldnGrey wrote:

SU costing is not mentioned above. The Armor plating cost of 5% would be too little.
Should it be a fixed cost per Armor point? 2/3 of a hull point SU? Seems a little high, 66SU per Armor hit would, I think, restrict it to larger ships.

Remember -- the "cost" of a hull point in SX is variable.

I would set the cost of a point of armor at 50% of a hull point: i.e.,

(Hull + 9) * 5

So, a ship with a hull of 12 would spend 105 SUs per armor point, while a hull-1 ship would spend 55.

2,543

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Example:  Vessel A has 6 Hull.  Vessel B has 4 Hull and 3 Ablative Armor.

Cost for Vessel A=Cost for Vessel B, correct?

In theory, yes.

2,544

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

So, its CR impact is the same as increasing the hull by 2/3...

Works for me.  I'll let you know if any play results suggest that the value should be higher or lower.

Umm... I THINK so.

It's the same as increasing the hull by 2/3 the number of armor points -- not the same as increasing the hull by 2/3 the number of hull points.

2,545

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

The fighters themselves are included in the ship cost, have a system for them just as now.. but have the cost go, rather than into the Orat and Drat, into the back end as a flat amount.  That way we charge for the extra Q hit, but a flight of fighters costs what a flight of fighters is worth.. when their over 80 points on some designs and under 50 on others, we are I fear encouraging soap-bubbles and other 'gamist' solutions.

The reason the "cost" for fighters varies with the strength of their carrier is that you only get victory points when you kill the carrier. Having a flat cost at the back end would not work, because it takes more effort to kill a carrier with 3 shields than one with 2 shields, for example.

If a flat cost for fighters is desired, then we'd have to grant VPs when the fighters are destroyed -- which is, incidentally, how it was handled in pre-X versions of Starmada.

All of that being said, if you think it needs to be higher in value than the extra hull box, I'd be willing to test that condition as well...  where would you start

Well, as a starting point...

The current CR formula (with its built-in assumption that you are losing firepower equally as the ship loses hull) is

Square root of (HITS INFLICTED PER TURN times HITS TO KILL)

You can assume that, over the life of the ship, the average firepower is three-quarters starting firepower (since, on average, a ship has lost half its firepower at the time it is destroyed). Sooo... the firepower during the time when ablative armor is being lost is the average firepower divided by 3/4. Thus, the formula just for the time while the ship is losing armor is

(HITS INFLICTED PER TURN divided by 3/4 times ABLATIVE HITS)

Because it's all multiplication, the "divided by 3/4" can be shifted to the number of ablative hits. As ablative hits are lost twice as quickly as hull hits, you must subsequently divide by 2, for a final relationship of:

ABLATIVE HIT = HULL HIT x 4/3 x 1/2 = HULL HIT x 2/3

So, the base defensive value becomes:

((ARMOR x 2/3) + HULL) x SHIELD FACTOR

2,546

(14 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but against a 0 shield, the roll needed to pierce the shield is 1.. so the 1 would do normal damage, and the 6 would do x6 damage.

Thats quoting from the book example, where a roll of 5 against a level 4 screen does normal damage, and a roll of 6 does double.

You are not wrong.

2,547

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

marcussmythe wrote:

> First, my apologies for doing this all in the yahoo group. 
> I've been unable to get a membership at the MJ12 forums. 
> Sent in an application (x2).

Sorry. Since the first of the year, spambot registrations have skyrocketed, and it's difficult for me to weed out the real people. Your account has been activated.

> > Because of the way in which OR and DR interact within the combat
> rating formula, this is not surprising. I don''t see it as a
> problem, necessarily.
>
> I'll have to respectfully disagree there.  I just dont think
> it makes sense to have fighter bays cost more on one ship
> than on another.  The fighters are going to start off
> launched, and have no reason to land.

Perhaps not, but this is a necessary consequence of treating fighters as an integral part of their carrier. I suppose we could split them out, as in earlier versions of Starmada.

> > Don''t think of these as \"extra immunities\", but just
> a consequence of the facts that (1) fighters always suffer a
> hull hit, instead of 50% of the time as with ships, and (2)
> fighters are always destroyed after a single hull hit.
>
> I respectfully submit that these are still advantages over
> the 3 hull, 6x R1 5+ 1/1/1 Halves Sheilds 13 Thrust ship
> (with the special- phases modifier) that you described as
> being the cost model for fighters.

A fair point. I could take a look at costing fighters as a collection of 6 parts, rather than a single whole.

> Its the fact that there are mutliple shield defeating weapon
> advantages, and none that work for PDS.  There are, I will
> grant, weapons that penalize you for not having shields at
> all (Increased Damage, especially), but there is also Shield
> Resonant which penalizes the ship with heavy shielding.
>
> What is your opinion on allowing Ignores-PDS, Half-PDS, PDS-
> Resonant, etc. weapon abilities?

I wouldn't specifically DISallow them... but I do think that way leads to madness. smile

> New question:  (Probably should be a separate topic)
> Hypothetical system:  Ablative Armor.
> After a weapon penetrates the shields, damage is resolved
> against ablative armor, with each damage point destroying one
> box of ablative armor.  All 'damage' destroys exactly one box
> of ablative armor, no matter what modifers affect how that
> damage would resolve against the ships hull.
>
> Cost:  Equivalent to extra hull equal to the number of
> ablative armor boxes

A good idea, but the cost might need to be somewhat higher since, as damage is being absorbed by the armor, systems are not being affected -- whereas system damage is taken as hull points are lost.

2,548

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

marcussmythe wrote:

> A few interesting things came up as I was fiddling with fighters...
>
> 1.)  A Battlecarrier costs more than a BB and a Carrier.
>
> Hypothetical Ship:  8 Hull, 4 Engines, 3 Screens, 4xR15 4+ 1/2/2 guns,
> 4 Fighter Bays:  402 CR
>
> Same ship, no Fighters:  126 CR
> Same ship, no Guns:  236 CR
> Cost for 2 ships, one with guns, and one with fighters... 362CR.
> ??????

Because of the way in which OR and DR interact within the combat rating formula, this is not surprising. I don't see it as a problem, necessarily.

> 2.)  If fighters are based on the cost of a thrust 13 Hull 3
> ship with a range 1 5+ 1/1/1 gun halves-screens gun and the
> 'moves last and shoots first' special abilities, why are
> fighters specifically immune to any extra PEN or DMG dice a
> weapon might have, immune to weapons which do no hull damage,
> immune to weapons that must reroll shield pens, immune to
> increased damage weapons.  (Note that the latter 3 define
> weapons that are very effective against unshielded ships)
>
> What would fighters look like if they kept all current rules,
> but lost that extra suite of immunities?
>
> Or is that extra suite of immunities included in the same
> cost multiplier applied for 'moves last and shoots first'?
>
> And if all the extra immunities as well as 'moves last and
> shoots first' is a (roughly) x2 modifier on Orat and Drat,
> how do I talk my gaming buddies into letting me take it on my
> non-fighter ships? smile

Don't think of these as "extra immunities", but just a consequence of the facts that (1) fighters always suffer a hull hit, instead of 50% of the time as with ships, and (2) fighters are always destroyed after a single hull hit.

> 3.)  PDS vs. Screens.  Is it the consensus that PDS's
> inability to protect you from 'Increased Damage' weapons is
> paid for by its invulnerability in the face of 'Halves
> Shields' and 'Ignores Shields'
> weapons?  Or is PDS (as it seems to me) just plain better,
> and best combined with either Shields 2 or 4 depending on the
> effect you want to go for?

PDS is neither better nor worse than shields or screens. While PDS may be more "cost effective" for some ships (in terms of how many SUs are required), they are all balanced by the combat rating.

2,549

(14 replies, posted in Starmada)

japridemor wrote:

If I wanted a Marine Squad to have an upgraded Boarding Pod (say speed 12, attacks on a 4+ and halves shields), does the following look correct?

ORat & DRat = 40 (Base Value) / 0.33 (getting rid of 5+ to-hit) x 0.5 (adding 4+ to-hit) x 1.2 (speed 12) x 1.8 (Halves Shields).

or: 40 / 0.33 x 0.5 x 1.2 x 1.8 = 130.909 = 131?

Again, you need to consider the square root effect. Also, range is not a prime factor in the equation -- it is added to the range of the "weapons", which in the case of boarding pods is 1. Thus, the formula should be:

40 / (0.33)^.5 x (0.5)^.5 x ((12+1)/(10+1))^.5 x (1.8 )^.5 = 71.8, rounded to 72.

2,550

(80 replies, posted in Starmada)

japridemor wrote:

Quick hypothetical question. If I wanted a race who's fighters ignored shields rather than just halved shields, would the following fighter calculations be correct?

ORat & DRat / 1.8 (for removing Halves Shields) x 2.5 (for adding Ignores Shields).

So: 50 / 1.8 x 2.5 = 69.444 or 70 for ORat and DRat?

Not quite. The weapon modifiers are applied to the ORat, before multiplying by DRat and taking the square root. When applying the modifiers directly to the base cost of 50 for fighters (which is the result of that square root), you need to also take the square root.

So, the formula would be:

50 / (1.8 )^.5 * (2.5)^.5 = 58.93, rounded to 59.