Uncle_Joe wrote:

That said, I see Fighters as one of the potential screws to any battle. If someone brings enough of them to the battle and you HAVENT set yourself up to deal with massed Fighters, you can pretty much say good night. So, to me it behooves the players to make sure that the game isnt always played double blind when it comes to enemy forces. People should have a reasonable idea of what they are going to face to prevent 'gotchas'.

Great wisdom there Uncle_Joe!
In the campaign we are playing there are few fighters at first. The history explains that they tried them before but they weren't effective and fell by the wayside.

Tech has changed, and the ships no longer have a credible defense against fighters. The players are now moving to put together anti-fighter capable ships and finding ways to field effective fighter forces.

It is a fun transition to watch and shows the versatility and value in understanding your opponent and working the tactics accordingly.

nimrodd wrote:

Several months ago, I created a Fighter design spreadsheet and posted it to the yahoo groups file section in the Starmada X section.

I remember giving that a cursory look, and thinking it seemed like the right idea. I'm just not a fighter junkie, so never tested it out.

Maybe I'll make some time for it.

BrotherAdso wrote:

I'd say that one of the better ideas so far is one that hasn't been deeply explored: allow fighters to be constructed a la ships, albiet with only one hull point, no shields, and no hyperdrive.  They could also be given overthrusters as standard, perhaps?

The trouble there is that some players already field 1 Hull ships without hyperdrives as in system patrol boats. And they can get a broader array of weapons and/or defenses than I envision for fighters.

I think that would leave it in the realm of optional rules, at best.

IF, this was was endorsed they would have to get something on the order of .5 hull or less before I spent the time to use it.

129

(0 replies, posted in Starmada)

I have been coordinating a play test for a VBAM campaign where we have been conducting all the battles using Starmada.

Events have produced 3 engagements at the same time, 2 of them pretty large (1 quite large: 30 or more ships on each side).

Needless to say, it will be difficult for me to play through all of these very quickly. Anyone interested in playing one out for us I send along the info?

1) Reduce the fighter's effectiveness

2) Re-introduce the Fighter Defence Network from the Compendium

3) Add an anti-fighter weapon enhancement or AFFC that allows vessels the ability to target fighters effectively.

Option 3 attempts to model the affect of option 2 (and really the anti-fighter battery, as well).

Now I tend to like option 3, "Fighter tracking" as a weapon enhancement that gives +1 versus fighters and -1 versus ships, just seems to make sense to me. It brings the considerations of how to deal with fighters into the realm of serious ship design considerations. It would end up taking a lot more space than option 2, I imagine, but it would allow true anti-fighter escorts.


Fighters ignoring shields has always honked me off (especially when the fighters are blazing away at my ships), but it also makes some sense if they attack from that close...

Star Wars (taken with a grain of salt I know) seems to use this idea also, how else can an X-Wing fly at a star destroyer (that shrugs off cruiser blasts) and blow big holes in it.

131

(13 replies, posted in Starmada)

You could do a borg cube similarly.

In general, though, I don't see such large ships being useful for games.
You can pack a lot of stuff on hull 12 to 15...

132

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

If this isn't the first entry in the "Official Historic Encounters Library of Starmada"

(OHELS to its registered members)

Then something is seriously wrong around here.

133

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

Fighters provide 50 CR, I believe, and a quick check in teh SXCA seems to confirm that.

Also, by changing only the hull value with no engines, tech, weapons, or shields the CR provided by fighters is not changing outside of recognizable rounding.

Unless, I am missing something.

134

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

What would you want tractor beam rules for?

I can think of many possible reasons.

Hold an opponent still so they couldn't run.

Drag a ship into close range.

Keep a ship with screens in place so you could beat on a single approach.

Prevent a ship from hyper-jumping out of a battle.

Hyperjump out of a battle with a wounded comrade.

Keep an opponent from turning to bring weapon batteries to bear after you got in their blind spot.

lol

135

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

Nahuris wrote:

Is there a problem with only having 2 drones on a ship? Or do I have to put them in groups of 5 as per the book rules?

John

Well unless Dan is on his way to your house now to thrash you for your brazen disregard for holy writ, I think you are fine.

Seriously, I think everyone follows the default groups of 5, but I have always thought that was arbitrary and have never understood the rational.(A) If you and your group agree that single loads is acceptable there shouldn't be a problem.

(A) Fighters come in 6, so you load 1 and it counts as six.
I never figured out why drones and the rest don't work that way.

136

(10 replies, posted in Iron Stars)

That qualifies, officially, as a ship with more than a few guns.


lol



Very cool.

137

(1 replies, posted in Starmada)

Uncle_Joe wrote:

For example, a short ranged weapon that hits on 3+,  and does continuous, variable damage. If you feel that boarding should only occur at even closer ranges, then double range mods. If you dont think boarding pods shouldn't be affected by shields, then Ignore them or Halve them.

Using this method, there is less record keeping, and the "Marines" are knocking out systems etc as the battle rages. The continuing damage works to act like prolonged fighting aboard the ship.

Anyways, I figured I'd throw that out there for people who might want a quick and easy way to represent 'boarding'.

Its definatly a testament to how flexible the design system is! smile

There is a good idea there.
It also touches on the fact that often marines control a ship after their side jumps out or loses. There is no way to scuttle the enemy's vessel.

With your approach they can keep target the ship to destroy it.

138

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

that is a pretty cool idea.

139

(11 replies, posted in Starmada X)

With the system I actually have in use I have roles for missile ships, minelayers, landers, marine assault ships, etc.

Well, I figured we all had our own systems.
We probably won't get a standard.  smile

It was worth a try, though.

140

(11 replies, posted in Starmada X)

This is where I think the SXCA generated displacement value comes into play, providing a way to differentiate similar hull sizes based on the volume of equipment on board.

This doesn't match what I have been using in my campaigns... but is in line with what I had been thinking. Similar to BrotherAdso's, without being quite as complex.

141

(7 replies, posted in Starmada)

Biggest active ship in the campaign I am currently running is about 350 CR...

And in a solo campaign I am playing biggest ship is about 400 with a 700pt carrier.

But, these are generally low tech (0 at the highest)

142

(30 replies, posted in Starmada)

jimbeau wrote:

Sure you have.  I think that is the true problem with the Stealth/LRS. Try a game without reverse (or with it limited to 1 hex/turn) and see if that makes the Stealth/LRS combo a lot more manageable. Even ships not designed to specifically counter that combo will be far more effective at it.

Honestly, I can't think of a single battle where I cried "stop moving backwards you bastard!"

When played well, or on prperly designed ships, the LRS/SG combo does not need to back up. It wouldn't hurt, certainly, but shouldn't be necessary. Especially since you can't back up faster than most ships move...

jimbeau wrote:

And the SG/LRS combo was particularly cheesy when combined with inverted range modifiers.

The problem is that you can't close fast enough to kill the opponent's ships before you lose 20% of your CR to the needle guns.

I did better with:

Lots of fighters
PDS
Shields 2
Very Fast Ships (8+ speed)
Sunbursts (which I play very poorly)

Speed is usually the killer.
PDS is a pain.
Marines could be vicious as I recall

jimbeau wrote:

Never did much with stutter drive, but that's one for the record.

Stutterdrive was Graham's play. I had to jump out to escape the beat down - the only time I ran with that fleet, damn it.  lol
The secret there is the extra movement managed to close the distance faster than I was prepared for - slipped through the whithering fire without withering.

143

(30 replies, posted in Starmada)

jimbeau wrote:

RE: Stealth Gen
Stealth Gen was and is and always will be the most broken system in my opinion.  It was worse before X. Long range sensors with SG make an unbeatable fleet.  Try that out.

<sidebar>Now, in defense of Dan: the SG/LRS combo should be fairly easy to defend against with tons of fighters and sunbursts and someone better tactically than me. I spent many years trying to defeat the SG/LRS never getting quite there.</sidebar>

<sidebar continued>Continuing the sidebar: In my experience good tactical use of sunbursts and ships with stutterdrives promise the best options for distance closing with lessened damage. Fighters less so... they did for a while but I learned alot about using Interceptors. :wink:

On the other hand, while I will not deny it is a powerful combo (Or with more nasty bits, try using weapons with inverted range modifiers) having commanded lots of SG/LRS ships in those "victories", the commander considered many of them pyrrhic at best.</sidebar>

RE: Fighters
The best defense is more of your own fighters cause they get to act in the fighter phase. High ROF will clear the enemy out fast, but odds are they will get a strike in first. Learn to weather it and a lot of your opponent's fire power will dry up quickly.

(Purpose built some anti-fighter escorts if you want, it adds to tactical play too. And if you can get them in on the opponent's ship they can really rain on a parade there, too.)

You can build a nice hull 3 or 4 ship with 3+ 3/1/1 ranged based ROF or re-roll to hit to keep fighters at bay.

jimbeau wrote:

Don't get caught up in the details and above all, have fun!

There in lies the best advice, and the MJ12 spirit.

144

(30 replies, posted in Starmada)

Uncle_Joe wrote:

1) Dogfighting. Is it something that is recommended to be used? Without it, there doesnt seem to be a way to really 'defend' against Fighters getting off their first attacks. With it, it seems like some of the Fighter customizations are weakened. Things like Bomber become very hard to use because an opposing Flight can just pin you forever until you are dead. Also, Drones and Marines seem a lot less appealing, again if they can just be pinned until destroyed. IMO Flights should have a chance to escape the Dogfight or somesuch.

DF is one of my favorite tactics.
The counter is if you are going to have bombers, have interceptors too to help and get them out front to take out the enemy fighters with DF of your own...

Uncle_Joe wrote:

2) PDS. How does this work? Do you make an extra PEN roll that fails on a 1/3/5? If its part of the 'normal' Pen rolls, doesnt that make the PDS a more or less cheaper alternative to shielding (and a good addition for certain shield classes)? I just dont see this thing as being 'balanced' across the board as its obviously FAR better for some shield numbers than others. Are we missing something?

I generally do not use this, but it is the same PEN roll but if the numbers come up then it blocks. Yes, cheap and nice. In fact somewhere around here is a nice graph that plots the advantage of PDS over shields, particularly for large ships...

The risk? A Q hit turns it right off.

Uncle_Joe wrote:

3) Armored Gun Batteries. From what it appears, AGBs simply make your weapons cost 50% more (SUs and CR). If so, then why not just increase your number of weapons by 50% instead of using AGBs? AGBs increase 'life expectancy' of a weapon by an average of 33% (5+ save). Simply stuffing on more weapons increases it by 50%. Yes, it does add more Battery hits to the damage chart, but I would think that that is WELL worth it for 50% more firepower as well. I would think it really wouldnt be that effective to put AGBs on a ship unless it was under 33% cost. Either that or if it took up 50% of the SUs, but only 25% of the CR? Is there some other cost alteration that we are not seeing?

This is more of a gut feel thing, tho I suppose there are numbers to make an argument there somewhere. It will depend on your tech level and ship size which makes most sense I think.

Uncle_Joe wrote:

4) Stealth vs ECM: It appears that with the current FAQ ruling about Stealth and 'for better or worse',  that Stealth is only marginally better than ECM in many situations. Sure, it does prevent attacks at Long range, but beyond that, the effects are similar. Unfortunately, there are situations where Stealth is significantly worse than ECM (like with reversed Range mods or vs weapons with no Range mods). That makes them pretty much close in capability, but the Stealth system is larger and far more expensive CR-wise. As a suggestion, why not allow the Stealth Generator to always give the best modifier of the real or modified range. For example, if a Stealth Ship is in Short range of an inverted range weapon, it can keep the Short range rather than counting it as Medium (and being worse off than even not having the system at all, let alone ECM). An easy way to phrase it would be 'Ships with Stealth Generators always enjoy the more advantageous of either the true range or one range bracket farther out'.

I can't explain it... but there was a long Stealth Gen cost debate shortly before X came out that put us where we are now with this. The feeling was that SG was too cheap before, partly due to combo innteractions.

I like your wording idea. But I am a Stealth Gen fan (white trash cloak)

Uncle_Joe wrote:

5) Rate of Fire. Its been touched on before, but I haven't seen an 'official' response as to what to do (if anything). Its become evident to us that, by far, the most efficient weapon is always 3/1/1 + whatever specials. It takes up less space than 3 equivalent 1/1/1's and is definately more efficient than increasing Pen or Dmg at all. It also happens to be the best build against Fighters. To me, this is a potential major screw as the point differences between 3/1/1 ships and other weapon combos REALLY add up. Everything else even, a 3/1/1 ships will beat another ship with any other R/P/D combo (again, from what we can see). For ourselves, we agreed to limit the number of RoF increases on our ships, but its still an imperfect solution.

Do you min-max it, or do what is fun? Go for fun and don't get hung up on the formula detail - thos since the whole group knows it... smile

I am sure there is no official response yet 'cause Dan is still cogitating. (Or kicking himself for not having noticed it himself.)

145

(11 replies, posted in Starmada X)

thread by class?
(frigate, BB, etc...)

I know this would be tough, cause your idea of a frigate versus mine may differ... but I have been using displacement numbers as a guideline in my materials, and if you pair it with something like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_sys … Royal_Navy

And use the number of Starmada batteries instead of gun decks, I think we could get a pretty elegant standard for cross reference in our designs...

146

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

jimbeau wrote:

However, I think Noel meant the Fighter Defense Network, which acts in the fighter phase..

Thanks, jimbeau. That is what I meant.

147

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

Speaking for myself, I haven't reached a pondering conclusion.   big_smile

On the surface it basically allows a ship to leave ship combat and enter the fighter phase as a dedicated anti-fighter mission. Would the ship then participate in the fighter phase as part of that phase's initiative process?

Would this be cheaper than a carrier with interceptors?
What is the advantage? Other than cool flavor - a la the Galatica's defense envelope.

Would it make more sense to apply this not as special equipment, but rather as a weapon enhancement? Or would that be over powering - effectively allowing any ship to carry one enhanced anti-fighter battery?
(course if you costed it properly....)

What about the old area defense network?

148

(11 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

As far as I know, the KBE rules were specifically designed for the Wars of the B&K, and are not an integral part of VBAM.

A good point I always forget.
The Stars Divided setting will be using them, also.

149

(11 replies, posted in Starmada)

Uncle_Joe wrote:

Ok, thanks for the info.

A side question for VBAM:

How hard is it to just use 'stock' Starmada X ships in it without having to convert to KBE and whatnot? I've noticed that not all the spreadsheets support the VBAM conversion and I'd honestly just like to have consistancy between campaign and non-campaign play.

Is it possible to play the VBAM rules without adding the VBAM altered ship mechanics (and still without a ton of hassle)?

Thanks again!

I think it would be pretty easy.
The spreadsheet with the VBAM stuff calcs regardless of whether you are set for VBAM/KEB or straight Starmada. So you have all your VBAM stats regardless, and then you can play your Starmada games out in your preferred form.

The version I am using is close to release ready - being modified for a new VBAM/Starmada setting due out shortly after the currently active playtest completes.

150

(0 replies, posted in Starmada)

Interesting article, and it featured Starmada.

http://theminiaturespage.com/workbench/74682/