Much of the recent discussion and discord over the way that Armor is currently implemented is that it possesses the same impact on damage as simply increasing the hull size does. It occurred to me that the problem here might not be with armor at all, but rather with the way we talk about hulls and their relative size.

Currently, we talk about "hull size" being a small number, between 3 and, oh, I've seen 39 thrown out in a previous thread. What if we were to, instead, talk about the hull size in terms of SUs exclusively. You pick the number of SUs you want to have in your ship, and you calculate a new value, let's call it Structure for the sake of being different, but you could just as easily call it Hull. It's determined by taking the SUs that you decided upon, dividing by 60, and taking the 1.3rd root, and rounding down.

Now, the size of your ship determines your hull strength, and armor comes along and, using some of that space, increases your hull strength directly.

The game impact is identical, but instead of people saying "well, I'll just build a bigger ship" the natural inclination will be to simply say "I'll buy some armor to beef up the structure of the ship."  It solves some of the semantic issues, it makes more sense why it has an effect on Marines, and I think generally makes the prior arguments moot.

Now, more is figured from the current Hull Size than simply hull points in combat - things like Thrust Factor and Defense Factor are directly impacted by the size, and if you use the rounded down figure, you're going to encourage people to find the "sweet spot" where they're not quite to the next hull point, to save space on engines and the like.

My solution is to simply use two values: Structure is rounded down, and it's used to determine how many hull points the ship has for damage purposes, as well as to determine how many drones may be launched in a single turn, and Size Factor is determined the same way as Structure, but rounded up, and then used to determine things like Defense and Thrust Factors going forward. It's a "worst of all worlds" situation for a designer who deviates from the standard options that would be provided in a handy chart, but gives flexibility in exchange.

So, am I out of my tree here? I know it's a pretty big departure in naming conventions, but I think it really solves some of the issues that people have with the standard way that hull and armor interact, as well as making the game just a little more flexible in the process.

Your thoughts?

2

(14 replies, posted in Starmada)

Erik, I actually had the same response formulated, and forgot to post it! I figure if you use a prox weapon with a range of 1-2-3, you're asking for trouble anyway!

3

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

I like your MANTICORE class CG.  It definitely will be hard to hit, and then dammage.  But the cost...
You mind if I downloaded this design and used in a game I am playing on Saturday?  I am courious if it really is worth over a thousand points...

By all means! I haven't tested this particular ship, but some reports are coming in that being a dedicated guided missile cruiser - i.e. using Drones exclusively - might be a bit of a drawback as you can only fire so many salvoes per turn (4 for this vessel, if memory serves) and between long range and point defense fire, they're less than effective. Might need a rebuild with Seekers instead.

4

(3 replies, posted in Starmada)

You're combining a significant benefit - not every ship has to waste space on a hyperdrive - with a couple drawbacks - the ship that does has to go passive while others escape, and all your hyperdrive eggs are in one (or at least limited) baskets. That might be a wash in terms of space and value.

5

(18 replies, posted in Starmada)

Whiplash, nice post. You're absolutely right - if we are to keep the naval theme that most science-fiction follows with, you should probably not have a set size or size range for what constitutes a destroyer versus a cruiser versus a battleship so much as designating a name based on function. One class of battleships might be hull 20, while another is hull 14, and you've got hull 16 cruisers in the same fleet, while some cruisers are smaller at only hull 10, which puts them on par, size-wise, with larger destroyers.

6

(7 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:
underling wrote:

I'm not sure what the multiplier or SU cost will be, but I'm guessing they will both be fairly large.

I'm thinking x2 would about cover it.

I don't know. x2 is kind of pedestrian. Can we have it be something involving log (base pi) of the seventh root of the hull size or something?

7

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

I will admit to gaming the system a bit and going for BAS < 1 on weapons intended for point defense, that round to 1 die each, but don't necessarily combine well into a broader volley.

8

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

Vandervecken wrote:

Someone will always go for the big guns.  They wont have as many as someone with more basic weapons, but when they connect, someone will know it in a very painful way.

Sad, really. When you can have so much more fun without much in the way of big guns at all...
<IMG src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65191280/Castigari%20Missile%20Cruiser.png">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65191280/Castigari%20Missile%20Cruiser.png</IMG>

9

(7 replies, posted in Starmada)

True, though I usually reserve those attributes - Dx2, Dx3 and Catastrophic - for weapons that have no better chance of hitting, but when they do, do great damage. Missiles and other explosive effects, radiation, that sort of thing.

10

(9 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

If such an unneeded weapon trait such as armor piercing does come out, I will probably change my Hull 22, Armor 45 design to Hull 67...(!)  The cost the same and the ship would gain over 6100 extra hull spaces.  I would make this 6100 cargo and call my Arizona design an armed freighter... lol
Any Armor-piercing trait will become useless.

Funny. This doesn't say to me that the idea of an Armor Piercing trait is useless so much as the entire concept of Armor is pointless as currently implemented. You're right, mechanically it's just more sensible to buy a bigger hulled ship, and for me to buy Dx3 on my "AP" weapons to chew through it more quickly.

But what if, instead, AP didn't mean what most of us have assumed, and instead there was a trait that said "If you've managed to hit in the face of their ECM, and their shields didn't stop the hit, it doesn't do any damage to armor, or to hull, and instead goes straight through to damage systems as though the ship had reached 'damaged' or 'crippled' status" - this would represent what I was after, a weapon that got through to cause internal explosions without even so much as touching the hull itself, armored or not...

11

(7 replies, posted in Starmada)

Even though there are no mechanical differences from doing so, I often will choose to have a higher BAS than number of weapons. FF12 at BAS1 is the same as FF1 at BAS12, but in my head the former is a battery of twelve light guns, while the latter is one enormous one.

12

(1 replies, posted in Defiance)

That's just a perfectly brilliant site for anyone who is trying to come up with custom, futuristic weaponry for a game. I can totally see using it from an RPG art design perspective.

13

(30 replies, posted in Starmada)

Nomad wrote:

Query with regard to Scout change (1 scout per 400 points -> -1 ECM for opposing side): is it legal to put the scout trait on the same ship multiple times for this purpose?  Kind of thinking along VBAM "towing or whatever functions" lines, except here it would be "scout functions".  Which I guess was one of the main uses of the concept in VBAM, actually.  </1AM tangent>

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the Drydock lets you do just that. That's diabolical, that is.

14

(54 replies, posted in Starmada)

And my half-baked Gunship rules!

I kid! In all honesty, I like the changes I've seen thus far.

I've made a ship or seventy-eight myself, and seen more than a few other designs in the basin and in the sandbox portion of the Drydock, and I've come to the entirely-unsupported-by-math conclusion that Diffuse might just be undervalued.

The attribute itself is entirely reasonable, but one new rule multiplies the effectiveness of the attribute out of bounds with it's "nearly neutral" effect on cost - the fact that point defense against seekers targeting the point defender are *always* at short range. So every single point defense weapon out there is range 3 and gets Dfs tacked on, and is effectively +2 to do the only job it's intended to do.

Maybe the fact that you're paying for a weapon that can only be used defensively is sufficient price to pay, but my gut says that if there's an attribute that's a "must have" for any particular role, that's a red flag for me.

Thoughts?

16

(55 replies, posted in Starmada)

I know I'm the only one who cares about this, but: how would you model Traveller meson weapons? They are stopped by shields, could be avoided by ECM, but ignores armor (and hull?) entirely, causing system damage, internal explosions and radiation damage. Riddle me this: I want a weapon that causes no end of havoc, but leaves a ship's armor and possibly hull entirely untouched.

17

(133 replies, posted in Starmada)

andyskinner wrote:

Just realized that the tech levels have been combined into one....But I'll miss it while designing.

Y'know, I agree. I liked the more differentiated system, and especially the fact that it made the components smaller, while the new system makes the ships have more available SUs - makes it seem like the higher TL implies higher TL of building materials (TL+2 ships are made of advanced laminates that take up less volume, while TL -2 ships are hollowed out asteroids, for example), without a subsequent boost in the size/space efficiency of the other components.

18

(14 replies, posted in Starmada)

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

Hmm, it is a bit hard on shields 3-6, but honestly I can't see another pair of numbers that would give a smooth curve of effectiveness without going back to the 'add/subtract # from impact roll' that you had in SAE.

If the goal is to simply "halve the effectiveness of shields" - you could make no modification to the shield roll, but when the shields do block a hit, the attacking player rolls a d6, and on a 4,5 or 6, the shield is "pierced" and the damage goes through anyway. Yes, it's another die/dice roll, but it's not terribly complicated, and eliminates the "shield math" in the rules as designed...

19

(6 replies, posted in Starmada)

That looks... remarkably cool! I don't think I have the time to take that on, no matter how much I want to...

20

(6 replies, posted in Starmada)

I'm really out of the loop - what is this Vassal of which you speak?

21

(36 replies, posted in Starmada Nova)

BeowulfJB wrote:

WEAPONS ARCS RANGE ATTACK DICE                                       -4   -6   -8 -10
14 Inch Strike Cannon (Acr/Gid) [FX2][AX2] 6-12-18    16 11 8 6 4 3 2 1 1 1 1 0
5 Inch Strike Cannon (Acr/Gid) [TR2][RT2] 5-10-15        6 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0

:?: Any thoughts from others?  Is there something I have neglected that will make this ship less effective?
Cheers

Sticking with her namesake, I think I'd like to see more oomph from those 5-inchers. More of them, honestly, rather than more power - the original did have 22 guns in that caliber after all. And while they're useful for AA fire, they're not in my eyes sufficient, without sacrificing offensive power. Maybe tack on some 3" short ranged guns for that duty?

And any thought of adding a few Drones to simulate the torpedo tubes?

Oh, and if anyone is paying attention, which do you prefer? My hacked attempt at Drake notation, or the screenshots? The SS's are easier, actually, than fiddling with spaces...

Going in the opposite direction, I've built the battleship design from the game, giving it a class name of Excelsior. It is covered in weapon systems, though some of them come out better than others.

Heavily armored, and with a ridiculously heavy screen, the Excelsior class battleship is designed for rough play. Mounting a Disruptor Cannon forward, three laser batteries and three charged particle beams (a compromise on Electron and Proton beams, which in SF:KH are impacted differently by different kinds of screens), the ship has lots of interesting firepower to toss around. Supplementing this are the expendables, four flights of drones (called Seekers, coincidentally, in the original game), eight heavy Torpedoes (again, should only have one in the air at a time) and ten Rocket Batteries, very fast, short ranged rockets with lighter warheads. Finally, it mounts twelve interceptor missiles, designed for point defense and intended not to be useable against other ships, only against seeking weapons.

<IMG src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65191280/UPF%20Excelsior%20Battleship.png">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65191280/UPF%20Excelsior%20Battleship.png</IMG>

It's an old favorite from my youth, and you can download it for free! (http://starfrontiersman.com/downloads/remastered)

It's also one of my go-to games to convert ships from to test out Starmada in the incarnations I've known of it.

So, let's start with the ubiquitous Assault Scout. The Stiletto class is one of the most common ships in the UPF, with a small crew and it's own hyperdrive to allow it to serve as a great vehicle for small scale operations and scouting duties. While it packs a powerful alpha strike capability in the four Assault Rockets that it mounts, once those are depleted, it relies on a relatively weak Laser Battery.

Star Frontiers allows Assault Scouts to rearm at a station or a carrier, like an over-sized fighter. Not sure how I'd model that, in S:NE. Also, it should only ever be able to fire one Assault Rocket at a time, another rule option that's no longer valid, with the change from Ammo to Expendable. Might be time to sacrifice accuracy of conversion for convenience, lose the Expendable, and make it a single battery instead...

UPF STILETTO-class Assault Scout  (90)
ARMOR  [_][_]    [_]    [_]
HULL   [_][_]    [_]    [_]
THRUST  [7][5][4][2][2]   WEAPONS   [_][1][2][3][4]
ECM     [_][_][_][_][_]   SHIELDS   [_][_][_][_][_]
Hyperdrive; Scout
WEAPONS     ARCS                    RANGE   ATTACK DICE     -4      -6      -8     -10
Assault Rockets (Exp/Skr)
            [FR4][FR4][FR4][FR4]    2-4-6    12    8    6    4    3    2    2    1    1    1    0    0
Laser Battery (Dfs)
            [TR]                    4-8-12    1    1    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0
diddimus wrote:
cricket wrote:

Pre-order customers, please take note... The ZIP file has been updated to version 1.0.

It can be downloaded here, with the username/password provided when you placed your order: http://zips.mj12games.com/mjg0130.zip

Erm, I've tried various usernames/passwords, but I can't remember entering one at the time of order.  I paid by paypal, where abouts would I have entered a new username/password?

Is is possible to get the account reset?

If it's remotely helpful, mine came in an email from "paypal@mj12games.com" with my email address as the account, and a wholly made up password of random numbers and letters and whatnot.