Yes, our group has discovered this abuse as well. As the rules stand, your defense options are limited. (Anime spinal cannons can shoot through explosions.)
I really like the idea of "ships don't actually explode until the end of the combat phase".
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Yes, our group has discovered this abuse as well. As the rules stand, your defense options are limited. (Anime spinal cannons can shoot through explosions.)
I really like the idea of "ships don't actually explode until the end of the combat phase".
UNIT
VESSEL
SHIP (includes ships without hyperdrives)
STARSHIP
STATION (like ships, but with no engines or hyperdrives)
FLIGHT
FIGHTER FLIGHT
DRONE FLIGHT
MARINE BOARDING POD FLIGHT
BATTLESAT
MINE
Well, that makes almost no sense without the indentation. Lemme try again:
--VESSEL
----SHIP (includes ships without hyperdrives)
------STARSHIP
----STATION (like ships, but with no engines or hyperdrives)
--FLIGHT
----FIGHTER FLIGHT
----DRONE FLIGHT
----MARINE BOARDING POD FLIGHT
--BATTLESAT
--MINE
I decided to do a little cleaning of the FAQ. For example, I thought it might be nice if all of the spinal mount information were in a single entry "Spinal Mount", indexed under "S", rather than spread across several entries like "Are multiple spinal mounts allowed?" indexed under "A".
I managed to move one page and copy the content from another, but I can't figure out how to delete the old page. I can see why the wiki wouldn't want to make this trivial, but ... how do I do it?
I'd like to propose the following precise terminology heirarchy for the FAQ and/or the next edition of the rules. I feel that this could be helpful in avoiding some ambiguities. For example, the current rules often refer to "starships" when they apply more broadly, e.g., to stations.
UNIT
VESSEL
SHIP (includes ships without hyperdrives)
STARSHIP
STATION (like ships, but with no engines or hyperdrives)
FLIGHT
FIGHTER FLIGHT
DRONE FLIGHT
MARINE BOARDING POD FLIGHT
BATTLESAT
MINE
Most of the rules will therefore refer to vessels.
Any objections? Ambiguities/omissions/clarifications?
mundungus wrote:- Some generalization to make bring regular weapons and spinal mounts under the same rules
Not sure what you mean here.
Starmada seems to have a philosophy of elegant combination of many orthogonal options -- witness the way weapons are now defined, compared with the Compendium way.
Given that, it feels odd that spinal weapons have to be defined separately from regular weapons. Among other things, they can't have any of the other weapon options. The differences between spinal weapons and normal weapons are:
- Spinal mounts have a special narrow forward arc. I'm not sure if this is important.
- Spinal mounts are really big. We could just raise the ceiling on PEN.
- Spinal mounts take damage as the ship is damaged. This used to be a way to prevent a single hit from crippling a ship based around a spinal mount, but that can happen now with a Q hit. Maybe some kind of "several hits to destroy" option is in order.
- Anime spinal mounts have area effect. Two different area effects are conceivable: one hex and along-the-beam.
- Anime spinal mounts effectively have ROF 1/2. Fractional ROFs should be allowed in general, although it might reduce bookkeeping to limit these to 1/n, where n is a positive integer.
I'd like to see all of these things moved into the regular weapon options, so we don't need special rules for spinal mounts.
mundungus wrote:- Add campaign rules (I of course plug my "Maximum Burn" rules)
While I fully understand the max burn bit, :wink:
with "VBAM: Starmada Edition" out, I wouldn't know why this one wasn't addressed. :?
Through a gift error, I have "VBAM: Starmada Edition" but not the campaign book. Still, it's apparent that the VBAM rules are extremely detailed. Simple campaign rules would only take up a few pages in a Starmada rulebook.
It looks like there are some rules tweaks in order. Specifically:
- The various errata and clarifications in the FAQ
- Whatever Dan decides to do about "the ROF problem"
- Some generalization to make bring regular weapons and spinal mounts under the same rules
- Add campaign rules (I of course plug my "Maximum Burn" rules)
Beyond that, I'd like to see a book with (a) more and better artwork and (b) lots of scenarios. In my humble opinion, scenarios should name specific ships, not just "spend 500 points".
A plan:
1) Fix up the rules and release a PDF file with all of the changes.
2) Dan enumerates design constraints (available technologies, etc.) for each of four or five official races.
2b) Shipyard and SXCA are independently modified to be compliant with the new rules; ships can be double-checked this way
3) A Brigade-style contest is held to gather ship designs for each race. Assuming there are enough submissions, ships from more than one designer may be accepted for a given race.
4) Once the ship designs are published, a second contest is held to design scenarios. These are tested out at conventions.
5) ...
6) Profit!
There, Dan, aren't you glad you have me to tell you what to do with your copious spare time? :-)
I've put down some thoughts on killer strategies and their counters. Any others?
Also, are there other ship design graphs you'd like to see?
mundungus wrote:"A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) may perform no actions other than movement..."
This the INTENT of rule C.7.2, although it may not be worded very well. I may replace it with the above paragraph in future editions.
Thanks!
We should probably also remove the text in C.31 that talks about a cloaked ship acquiring a TDAR lock.
A cloaked unit cannot be acted upon by any other unit; this includes towing it or landing fighters on it.
Ooh, but what about area affect weapons. What if I suspect there's an adjacent cloaked ship, so I set off my shockwave? I'd say that should affect the cloaked ship.
I guess I meant that it is a little confusing to go on then and specify prohibited actions in a what reads like a finite list... but I accept that the ruling is sufficient as proposed.
I was trying to avoid any rules lawyering along the lines of, "A fighter flight landing on my cloaked carrier isn't the carrier taking an action, it's the fighter flight taking an action, so I should be allowed to do it."
So, here's improved wording:
A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) may perform no actions other than movement. Movement includes regular movement, stutterdrives, hyperdrives, overthrusters, evasive action, and emergency thrust.
A cloaked unit cannot be acted upon by any other unit; this includes towing it or landing fighters on it. If a unit merely attempts (and fails) to cloak, other units may act on it.
Battlesats, drones, fighters, marine boarding pods, and mines already on the board may continue to operate normally; however, no additional drones, fighters, etc. can be launched until the ship de-cloaks again.
Dan, may I add this to the FAQ as the intended meaning of C.7.2?
mundungus wrote:Or, more elgantly still, "A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) may perform no actions other than movement. Movement includes regular movement, stutterdrives, hyperdrives, overthrusters, evasive action, and emergency thrust. Any action involving interacting with another unit, such as launching or recovering fighters, ramming, towing, or being towed, is specifically prohibited."
This the INTENT of rule C.7.2, although it may not be worded very well. I may replace it with the above paragraph in future editions.
Thanks!
Okay, I'd like to put that in the FAQ, but I can't seem to find the "create a new page" page. Can anyone tell me how to get there?
I say Spinal Mounts should do the one-shot crippling, but SMs in Starmada are weak.
...
A better weapon is one in a normal battery slot with ROF 3, PEN 3, DMG 3, can have any number of options (up to 3 using the SXCA), and increased firing arc.
If we could just add fractional ROFs, extend or remove the ceiling on PEN and DMG, and add a "several hits to destroy" weapon option (possibly with degraded performance as the weapon takes damage), we could do away with special rules for spinal mounts.
Note that "several hits to destroy" could take the place of armored gun batteries. Hmm, how would degraded performance work? I guess each of ROF, PEN, and DMG would be reduced to the original number times the fraction of hits remaining, rounded up to the nearest integer or (ROF only) simple fraction. So, consider a weapon with ROF 1/2, PEN 5, DMG 2, and 3 hits to destroy. After the first hit, it would have ROF 1/3, PEN 4, DMG 2. After the second hit, it would have ROF 1/6, PEN 2, DMG 1.
Another rule, which would also eliminate the nasty cloak-TDAR abuse and probably others, would be:
"A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) cannot do ANYTHING, other than movement, that would increase its chances of damaging an enemy, directly or indrectly. This includes attacking, attempting to acquire a TDAR lock, launching fighters, laying mines, charging an anime spinal mount, performing repairs, etc."
Or, more elgantly still, "A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) may perform no actions other than movement. Movement includes regular movement, stutterdrives, hyperdrives, overthrusters, evasive action, and emergency thrust. Any action involving interacting with another unit, such as launching or recovering fighters, ramming, towing, or being towed, is specifically prohibited."
Well, in theory, you could end up rolling 1000 dice of non-mine weapons against a stationary target, too... but I think it would be reasonable to limit the number of mines 'launched' in a turn to the number of undamaged hull points on the ship.
Another rule, which would also eliminate the nasty cloak-TDAR abuse and probably others, would be:
"A cloaked ship (or a ship that attempts to cloak) cannot do ANYTHING, other than movement, that would increase its chances of damaging an enemy, directly or indrectly. This includes attacking, attempting to acquire a TDAR lock, launching fighters, laying mines, charging an anime spinal mount, performing repairs, etc."
Because there is absolutely nothing that can be done against a cloaked ship (except where the cloak roll fails), it can usually get into the perfect position to attack and escape if necessary. To allow the ship to also drop in and out of combat to take advantage of timing in other aspects makes it, IMHO, too powerful.
I have tried several ways of generating a text-based output in excel that does not look unreadable to me... and have failed.
Anyone else want to try to create a text-output for the Shipyard design pages that we can incorporate as the "official" version of it for Shipyards?
As a layout, I had something like this in mind:
Eyrie-class Carrier (237)
Hull: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 4 3 2 1
Shields: 5 4 3 2 1
A. Anti-Fighter Laser
AC AC AC AC AC BD BD BD BD BD EF EF EF EF EF
Hyperdrive O
Fighter Bay OOOOOO OOOOOO
1:HQ 2:EQ 3:Ha 4:Sa 5:Ha 6:Q
Note that a weapon with 5 or more shots actually takes up more room than a unlimited ammunition weapon, however.
True, but you can fire all of those shots at once, which can make for a devastating alpha strike.
1. Are you using the Shipyard spreadsheet? It produces record sheets like the ones in the Starmada rules.
2. I've been using the ones from Ground Zero Games. Yes, they are in the UK, but they offer very good prices, excellent models, and fast shipping.
I'd like to propose a play-by-email Starmada / Maximum Burn campaign.
I'm looking for admirals (who would run the various star nations involved, making strategic moves) and captains (who would fight the actual battles). For this to work, I would have to have at least one group of players physically near each other so that they could play out the battles.
Here are the proposed rules:
1) The referee's (my) rule is law. Rules subject to change without notice, not to be takin internally or used as a floatation device, etc. I'll do my best to be fair and not suddenly make major changes, but it might happen. If you want to try some odd tactic, ask me first before investing a month's gameplay in it.
2) We'll use the rules from the Maximum Burn website. For this campaign, only the "basic" ships provided there are allowed.
3) When you are asked to make a move or other decision (over email), please respond quickly, ideally within a day. If you don't respond within a week, I will make your decision for you so the game can proceed.
4) Be aware that it may sometimes be days or even weeks between your opportunities to move, while I wait for the other players.
5) When a battle occurs, I will send it off to one of the groups of captains to be fought. You may give pre-battle orders to your captains, e.g., "Keep the carrier alive at all costs." In the unlikely event that you are physically near those players, you're free to join them and lead your fleet into battle.
So ... who's dumb enough?
If you'd like to play as an Admiral, please post here your name, email address, and the city where you live.
If your group of players would like to serve as Captains, please post the list of names, a contact email, and the city where you play.
The only thing that I thought that you show add to the campaign system (and I think you had this in earlier versions) is that a person may spend a VP to get more megacredits. Maybe 10 Mcr or 15 if you have the least number of VP (only 5 VP can be spent in a turn in this manner). It might not help much, but it would help someone who is on a losing side beef up defenses to stay in the game.
Hmmm, I'm not sure.
I know I've had some versions where VPs and production currency were the same. Making the VPs permanent ensures a steady march to the end of the game. There may be something to be said for not making the game too balanced.
Does anyone else have opinions on this?
I do hope others will try the system out!
I've updated the Maximum Burn web site:
http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/starmada/maxburn.html
Notably, I've written up our house rules (including a very stable Newtonian movement system and the latest iteration of our campaign system) as "Appendix MB". Also, I've provided a set of basic ships for introducing new players.
Let me know if anything is broken or if there is some cheesy strategy for stomping everyone in the campaign game.
Related to stations:
How do you make them? Do you follow the rules as in the Compendium, or something else? (i.e., a size 20 ship gets 1.5 x normal space)
I don't do anything special -- a station is just a ship with no engines or hyperdrive. I allow them to be larger than regular ships; no need for a special multiplier.
Full thrust has three categories: escort, cruiser, and capital. An interesting rule in the campaign system is that no more than 50% of the ships in your navy can be in the same category, neatly avoiding extreme "one giant superdreadnought" and "thousand points of hot, fusiony death" strategies.
I'm planning to do something like this in my Hull Breach stuff, with "scout", "patrol", and "capital" corresponding to your first three categories. I currently don't allow mobile ships above size 12, but stations can make 20.
We had one of our best Starmada battles to date last night. There were 5 players (two of them new). 48 ships came into play; 12 more were waiting in hyperspace, but we called the game on account of time before they arrived. There was lots of maneuvering, a proper wall of battle, and plenty of exploding.
The scenario: the intruder fleet enters through one wormhole (6 ships at a time) and tries to exit through the other. To exit, you must end your turn on the exit wormhole AND have a functioning hyperdrive. Each side had two dreadnoughts, four battlecruisers, eight destroyers, and sixteen corvettes. At the time we stopped, two corvettes had run the gauntlet, a dozen or so ships had been destroyed, and about four had flown off the map into the Oort Cloud.
What made this scenario work so well?
- The two wormhole hexes provided terrain. Having to exit at a particular point finally makes it reasonable to do piracy and several other scenarios that normally devolve into ridiculous map-floating. Furthermore, it is no longer necessary for the running ships to be really slow, so we could use faster ships, making maneuvering more important.
- We VASTLY restricted the weapons available to lasers (18), ion cannons (15, ignores shields, no hull damage), and fusion torpedoes (9, PEN 3, expendable).
- Weapon arcs were restricted to AB, AC, and BD. This means everyone has a blind spot in the back!
- All of the aforementioned restrictions allowed for greatly simplified ship sheets. The 13 engines on a corvette were represented by 13 1/8" blue boxes to be filled in as the engines were destroyed. A laser is a red circle with a line indicating its direction of fire.
- We used special maneuvers: emergency thrust, overloading and directing shields, and evasive action.
If I had it to do over again, the only change would be to cut the sizes of the fleets in half.
Well, it is. The "official" SXCA never had any of those options.
However, I'm happy to host whatever files people wish to put up on mj12games.com -- but someone's gotta send 'em to me.
Fair enough. There's probably something to be said for a stable official version that doesn't change every week. :-)
Peter Drake
mundungus wrote:Hey Dan, could you put the latest version of the SXCA up on mj12games.com? I'd rather not walk around Yahoo!Groups alone at this time of night.
Actually, that's where it's always been:
http://www.mj12games.com/starmada/sxca.xlt
That appears to be an old version without the plain-text ship record, custom fighters, etc.
Peter Drake
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