I love the Cornwallis
But that's just my ego talking.
I started plunking FACs on battleships because I saw them as being the equivalent as the floatplanes carried on dreadnoughts starting in the 1920s.
They just have offensive capabilities.
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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by themattcurtis
I love the Cornwallis
But that's just my ego talking.
I started plunking FACs on battleships because I saw them as being the equivalent as the floatplanes carried on dreadnoughts starting in the 1920s.
They just have offensive capabilities.
I do not want to discourage folks from posting their designs. In fact, if we were going to do a design contest, the two factions I'd most want to see would be an expanded White Russian Fleet and a Serbian OR Balkans Fleet.
Say Greece and Serbia and their buddies did NOT turn on each other following the Balkans War. What kind of fleet could they field, ala the ABC Powers?
We have the Greeks posted here. Throw up their allies.
Secondly, I see a White Russia following the Revolution being VERY protective of slavic states/entities. They're weakened, and want to secure their western and southern borders.
So say they rebuilt their ether fleet. What would they field?
I mean, if we're gonna compete, why not ask folks to draft powers we know will likely make the next supplement?
Or let someone go hog wild and offer up mechanics and ship designs for the Martians. They're going to come back eventually, and we know what the Soviet hybrids look like. What can the real things do?
John. His name is John.
My name is Frank.....err Matt.....er boss to my staff. But they like me because I let them work flex.
Well I think it would be a shame to lock it. Murtalian has offered the French, and they're canon. It's been acknowledged that he has some cool ideas in ship design. As long as we're not knocking his mom, or he doesn't start making fun of my kids, I think it can remain constructive.
Just lil things in thinking like that to keep things a bit more in touch with events, timeline, and capabilities. Cuba suddenly launching a size 35 DN would be crazy...but they may scrounge enough for a corvette or two and some FACs as a 'coastal patrol' umbrella.
EXACTLY. My point. Other countries will respond as best they can....and as best they can should include at least one or two models of Fast Attack Craft. I will never dispute that. But canon-wise, there have to be hull-size considerations.
Again, I know they're not official. I just figure it's great if folks post their ships, and it's great if they spark conversation, pro and con. If Murtalianconfederacy (can I have your first name, that's long) is ever ticked by my comments, then I'll be the first to say sorry.
Do you really think that, having seen what's going on in space, any new player is going to enter the race without FACs (for example), or at least a way to counteract the other players' FACs?
You're misunderstanding....or I'm not being clear.
I don't care if everyone and their mother has FACs I think that's just fine.
I DO think it's a bit much to think that you're going to have a combined arms ubership featuring huge primarires and aetherkatapults in every military. Not going to back down from that. I do think it's a stretch to have Siam's military thinkers saying "we have the PERFECT ship we're going to order from Vickers" and then produce a vessel that will have the RNES saying "Holy S--t, how did we ever let a foreign power buy that off of us?!?!"
There are designs coming from the Greeks and Danes and Chinese that rival anything, strength wise, that have come from the evil Commie menace, Germans or British -- who are supposed to be the leading power.
Play-wise....taking a pickup game and going to the hobby shop and using them -- they're fantastic Read my posts in the other threads and you'll see people liked the Siam heavy cruiser, and I myself have shown the Dane stats to other IS gamers. The consensus -- mean-ass ship.
It's just that fitting into the universe setting, I have a few problems with them.
I understand they're not official, and I don't think it's dissuading people form contributing their ships if we're talking about personal preferences.
I had to come back for this. So sue me.....
I don't think there's anything wrong with the canon ships. It's just a matter of taste on his part, which is cool. They ain't gonna be for everyone.
For me, I have a conceptual problem with some of the unofficial ships -- simply because they don't feel right, universe wise to me. Below isn't meant to be contentious, it's just how I'm perceiving things.
All of these factions, or nearly all of them, are suddenly fielding BIG hybrid battleships/carriers with powerful guns (primary and secondary), rockets to take down FACs, and attack craft of their own. As if these minor players have been taking notes the instant tactical innovations appear on the scene, and then commission ships to address every and all contingency. The Greeks aren't playing catch up. They're fielding something that can go toe-to-toe with anyone. So are the Danes, and Siam. And I just dunno about that. The names are different, but in a ton of ways they're remarkably similar to each other.
They're great math wise (very efficient with their hull space), and yeah, you'll be hard pressed to design a ship that doesn't get hurt trying to take them on. The Danes are monsters. But they don't feel right to me, and being the fluff guy, I like ships with a fixed mindset in place. And these tend to feel the same (no offense). I'm not talking about "this ship has a lightning projector, and I thought that was limited to the Brits." I mean, Siam has a big 20+ ship hull with powerful primaries and a pair of FACs. The Danes have a big BB with powerful primaries and FACs, along with a Heavy Cruiser with big primaries and FACs. Everyone carries rockets. Most of them has a D6 (X4 or X5) torpedo. Not trying to pound it into the ground, just making a point because to me THIS, rather than folks sharing a bit of kit here and there, makes everything taste the same.
As for Canon ships,
The Turks have some big ships, but they aren't groundbreaking, and their design overall isn't uniform. It's a mish mash.
The Germans, to me, look like commerce raiders. Lots of guns that could decimate cruisers and light vessels, but not many big bruisers.
The Austrians were also built with a specific philosophy in mind. Decent gunnery ships, but nothing spectacular, they were meant to rely heavily on FACs. You better not throw the Hunyadi against a battleship, and the Ersatz is a powerful battlewagon, but it's not a FAC hybrid. Because in the Merchant War, FACs are brand new, and I didn't envision many folks coming up with such an idea for a capital ship.
The Italians did, though, a couple of years later with De Monarchia. Again, they're built around something that seemed to be a theme in real life. Lots of primarires, and fast, but they've got a glass jaw.
The British, in my mind, are great because they are a mixture of a lot of different approaches, but then, they're the faction blazing the most trails. BTW -- I would put the new Cornwallis and Nelson against just about any vessel.
The ABCs have some good ships, but not that many big hulls. The Spanish likewise. The Spanish have a ton of little fellas. Feels right as they're not a financial powerhouse, according to the fluff.
Hey -- I get passionate about stuff. Sometimes to the point of obnoxiousness.
Really, I was considering this step before, and I gotta go with it now.
Time to buckle down and address some other things that are going on. My girl is back from Iraq, my kids are trying to transition to a new home environment (after 15 months, the divorce -- very cordial but still very stressful -- is finally done and over with), work is amping up and there are 1,000 issues stressing me out. Which I'm probably displacing on to folks here. Surprisingly, outside of the MJ12games community I'm considered a very cheerful guy. I looked at some of the stuff I've posted here lately, and I'm kinda shocked.
The game's gotta evolve, and I think to do that it needs new input. So I'm gonna bow out. I've had a blast, and if folks need help with future efforts, lemme know. But I'm gonna steer clear of things from here on out, and I'm gonna keep the forum clear of my particular funk from now on. Dan, if ya want to write something, send me a letter. Ya can lay out the general idea and I'll try to spin it.
Against the Siam, or Thai, or whatever they should be called in 1913.
The Shinano and Teshio did well in one playtest scenario, and tanked in the second. The key was how they were used.
I like the faction's heavy cruiser, myself. We had a regular IS fest yesterday, and favorites voiced by the group that gathered include:
Siam
Chinese from the original rulebook (I think sentimental underdogs, there)
Austrians (hurray)
and the ABC powers
Not to many Anglophiles
The development of destroyers I think, would see bigger hulls. Look at the German destroyers developed in the 1930s, compared to what was seen in WWI.
This advances the idea a little faster, but the idea of larger destroyers is not without precedent.
Geez Louiz :shock:
There is officially ONE ship published in Southern Front that has Lightning Projectors. I have forwarded ONE ship unofficially that has them. And suddenly we're blending fleets together? I do not see one design, or even two, as problematic.
Because one Japanese DD has the kit, the lines are blurring together? The obsevation of "why have different nations at all" seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
Honest to goodness, we need someone with no interest in being involved in the game writing any review. There's a conflict of interest that could pop up if we have someone write a review and then their name pops up in the next supplement, which I think is gonna happen as folks like your Greek and French designs.
If I hadn't seen a conflict of interest in my writing an article, I woulda done it. Used to to write newspaper articles for a living
I declined when SZO asked me if I could do it. If someone on this forum just wanted to write an introductory article to the game, that would be different.
Just my opinion.
Just seems like an awfully boring matchup to me, pitting a ship that's worth twice as many points against an opponent that can't hurt it.
16 points is all of 8 more points than one of the puny little 2 hull destroyers, so I guess I don't see the problem. Putting together a 300 point fleet, I could find room for that difference.
And yeah, I see the Brits doing just that. We have them providing technical info in Southern Front (Dan let me keep that bit in the fluff I wrote), and you'll notice that a South American nation not affiliated with them is fielding lightning projectors on one hull in Southern Front -- apparently bought on the market.
So yeah, I see it happening
I've used it this weekend and it worked nicely
But it don't have to be for everyone.
Per what we have in Southern Front, Japan was in need of modernizing some of her ether designs. One gap that needed to be filled was a modern destroyer. The RNES stepped in to help with advisors and a technology exchange that proved beneficial.
Japanese designs, up to this point, have lacked torpedoes. So in response, engineers came up with the Shinano class.
With a similar displacement to her German and British counterparts, she comes equipped with the smallest lightning projector yet seen. Fast, and thinly (that's to so nil in protection) armored, she's a knife fighter meant to close, hit the enemies with torpedoes while raking the hull with her projectors, and then try and break away.
A small rack of Hale Rockets is there in hopes they'll be enough to sweep away screening FACs.
Shinano class DD
Hull: 5 (S/2) PV:16
Armor: 0
Thrust: 8
Primaries: 2/d4(x2) Forward-Only Lightning Projectors
Secondaries: -
Light Guns: 2/d4(x2)
Torpedoes: 3/d8(x4)
Machine Guns: 3
Hale Rockets: 5
[1-9] [-] [10-16] [17-18] [-] [19-20]
Sister Ships: Teshio and Kitakami
This got plunked into the Greek thread at first, but I changed my mind and want it as a seperate thread so folks can comment on experiences they may have had with the 2nd Gen Russian ships.....Gonna delete the first post. Sorry for that.
Still curious as to how the 2nd Gen Russian ships perform, as they are radically different from other fleets. And as I gave grief over the Greeks, I decided I'd be a heel if I didn't at least try them. We had to proxy them with British Counters, but everyone knew who was who. Finally got to play for the first time in a while
Opposing Fleets were as follows:
Svarog (my favorite Russian 2nd Gen)
X3 Ignatyev destroyers (1st gen, but I needed FACs)
X3 Volk Fast Attack Craft
Versus
Georgios Averoff
Basilissa Olga
X2 Georgios destroyers
X2 Nordenfelt FACs
Turn 1
We lost initiative, which didn't really matter to me. 1st Turn never provides much in the way of action. Forced to go active, that's what we did.
First blood went to the godless commies, as Svarog's heat rays were able to feasibly target Averoff at a range of 13" (+2 to gunnery, with the ship's armor reduced to 2, rolling D8s, I got a 1, 3, 7 and a 8). 8 is what I needed, and all three points from that hit went into the Greek ship's hull.
Response from the Greeks was nil for the first turn, as my destroyers were slightly behind Svarog, who was on point. During the End Phase, both sides launched their FACs.
Turn 2
Svarog had already angled to present her broadside. Winning Initiative (reds were Reactive) this turn, she maintained course as the Greek line of cruisers now responded. They were able to close within a +1 gunnery range band, but things were going to stay largely static as thrust ratings were equal across the board.
The Ignatyevs had proceeded in a straight line before to launch their FACs, but now, having loosed their fast movers, they responded to the Greek destoyers, which were arrowing in on the Russian flagship.
The Greek FACs had hung relatively close to their parent vessel now, and it seemed kind of clear that the Nordenfelts were content to wait for me to make my move -- hoping to shoot me down on my attack run a Greek ship, then make their move on my own hulls.
FACs are all or nothing in my opinion, and yer bound to lose a lot of them in most battles, so I went for it. All three Volk attack craft swooped in on Basilissa Olga as the defending craft seemed concentrated around Averoff.
The Nordenfelt's got to fire before I completed my torpedo runs, and with four light guns between them, managed to blow one of my Volks to scrap (range is effectively doubled against FACs, so the "2" they would normally have needed was boosted to "3," and only one "3" came up).
The Volk each needed a "4" to hit with their torpedoes, and managed to drive two into the Olga's hull at nearly PB range. All six points of damage went against its structural integrity, and a lot of swarthy Med dudes got sucked out into the void. Our puny little machine guns didn't accomplish a thing.
As they were active, the Greeks now took their revenge on my doomed FACs. Basilissa Olga had lost her Hale Rockets due to a Q hit, but she didn't need them at this range. Her light guns blew my little fellers to dust.
Luck was with my when it came to the enemy destroyers, though. They had gotten within knife fighting distance of Svarog, and really, those X5 torpedoes were making me sweat. But they needed a 7+ hit (4+2 for its armor being cut in half +1 for range) and didn't come up with anything higher than a "6."
Their light guns, no fewer than six, were directed against a lone Ignatyev, and managed three hits, reducing its thrust and knocking out a light gun.
The cruisers, directing their attention on Svarog, rolled eight D10 primaries between them, and managed two hits, even when needing "10s" to damage me at that range. Eeesh. All four points of damage came out of its hull.
Their Light Guns went against my destroyers, but didn't accomplish much. Although a cloud of Hale Rockets shredded my thrust ratings and ticked off a couple hull points. I've noticed that small destroyers are hard to kill as most conventional hits go against their thrust, and they can absorb a lot in that area.
My turn to shoot -- and the Greek destroyers suffered. The Svarog's D4 (X2) secondaries shoot Black Smoke, and while their armor penetration is nil against anything but destroyers (ya gotta treat an AR 0 ship as having AR 1 against gas attacks), they managed to get the job done here. Two shells drove into one of the enemy DDs, suffocating its crew. And the other, while not dead, saw its thrust and guns whittled away by the Ignatyevs.
Svarog turned its primaries on the damaged Basilissa Olga, and rolled the salvo of the night with three hits (with its armor of 2 reduced to 1 by the heat rays I only needed "7" or better) 8). Not as much went into its hull as I hoped, but it was now down to five hits, and had lost one of its primaries, along with 2 thrust, which made me smile.
Turn 3
We lost initiative, and the Greek player took the "reactive" role.
Svarog took its cue and shot straight ahead as far as it could, knowing that one of the Greek ships would have lost its ability to keep up. Basilissa Olga now lacked any real chance of hurting me, and Averoff was kept in the +1 band. My destroyers basically peeled off, resigned to the fact that there was little else they could contribute except to die, and the exchanges between them and the Greek rear are now an irrelevancy as no VPs were awarded to either side.
Focus shifted between the sole combatants in any real shape to fight. The Nordenfelts came a'swoopin in, and loosed two D6 (X5) torpedoes at PB range. But I LUCKED OUT. They needed 3+2 (5s) to hit and neither got a "5." D6 torpedoes are scary against lighter ships at PB range, but sole missiles against a heavily armored opponent just weren't cashing in.
I got to shoot first, and directed the D4 secondaries against the FACs. I only needed 2s, and that's what I got. Scratch the Nordenfelts.
Aiming the primaries at Averoff in the +1 band I needed "7s" and only gone a single hit, scratching off two hull points and a light gun.
In response, the Greek heavy cruiser missed with its four rolls, needing "10s."
Turn 4
Chugging along, the game kinda started to crawl here. Or would have, if I hadn't seen the Greek land two hits with its primaries -- damn nice rollling -- taking out a primary, two hull points and a secondary gun.
:evil:
I landed, again, a single hit for a point of hull, a point of armor :twisted: and a secondary gun.
Turn 5
No hits on either side, which sucks for me as I only needed a 6+ now.
Turn 6 (last one)
Two primary heat ray hits 8) ....only knocking out three hull and THREE light guns. How do I manage two 18s and a 20?
Averoff returns the favor by knocking out another hull point and another precious primary.
End result -- first time adding it up as it seemed a clear, if minor victory for the Reds.
74 VPs for the Commies.
42 VPs for the Greeks.
Observations --
Ignatyevs are great in convoy scenarios, but not much to smile about in stand up fights. The Svarog is solid front line ship and brutal against the old school destroyer. Its healthy speed saved the day as I think things would have turned ugly for me against two cruisers. Torpedoes remain my friend, as the Volks, while doomed, managed to put a hurtin on one enemy ship.
Greek torpedoes were horrible in performance. But their gunnery made me throw fits. 10 after 10 after 10. And their mines could have been a factor if the scenario had gone any differently. Solid designs.</r>
Dont get the point of that exercise. Picking a ship that obviously doesn't stand much chance of winning a gunnery duel with a full fledged BB and then picking it apart.
Cavalcanti is a thinly armored, but fast BC with guns designed to take down a cruiser. Looking at her profile, you can see she isn't mean to go toe-to-toe with a battleship.
She woulda had to. She has six D12s, which would work well against a VL ship with 4 armor (needing a 10+ at PB range, and an 11+ at anything less than 10").
Course, kinda hard to counteract a handful of FACs (especially if they're carrying torpedoes) when you don't have any yourself. The Ersatz also has very few light guns, trading them in for being heavy on primaries and secondaries (ten D6 (x2) guns).
The little defense ship would have only one gun it could contribute against the enemy battleship.
Case of combined arms fleet killing a gun platform
Yer fine
I agree the Janes approach will help show what fleet designers were thinking when they came up with their hulls. I was just slapping my forehead because the Soviet ships are already out there, and I realized NO ONE would know what I was thinking at the time.
And as for being an a--, I think the personality trait is grossly underestimated
EVERY job I've had to date, they've wanted me to be aggressive. And I'm a poly sci major to boot. I love throwing stuff back and forth in an open forum.
Just don't make of my mom.........
Not to me.
To me, the commies were trying to lend a mythical/awe-inspiring air to their 2nd generation ships. Notice they didn't name 1st gen after mythical figures, but after people. They went back to old, Slavic cultural roots and brought them back to the fore front.
Secondly, commies put down modern religions. They oppressed Greek Orthodox and the Jewish communities. But how many Russians were actively worshipping Perun when Lenin showed up? I'm figuring about as many modern Europeans as still worship Thor.
Last, by name shippings after ancient, pagan gods, I see them showing some intentional irony -- mocking western Judeo-Christian states and values.
That's too bad, I really liked this set. Any hints on what the 'real' French look like?
Definitely looking forward to seeing the Americans.
-Will
I was fond of 'em myself. But I wasn't aware that Dan had some already in the hopper. If you want a word file with them included so you can use them, lemme know and I'll shoot them your way.
All irrelevant. The French are established and my ships ain't in there.
On the plus side, I got the other red, white & blue written up. Fans of the Keel Bombard should like the United States Ether Service.
I printed out a second sent of TMW counters so I'd have enough Austrian FACs to play it
My only reservation is that a ship can only launch so many FACs per turn, dependent on its size. And it has to move straight ahead to do that. Seems the CV is going to make itself a really obvious target.
We'll see how she does this weekend :twisted:
Yes and no, from my perspective.
I hate cloak...subs don't go invisible... they use their surroundings and slow careful behavior with tactics to try and be sneaky. the other side has to use tactics and technology to crack the surroundings to find the opponent. it is a challenge. subs are never untouchable, never out of reach... it is a matter of thinking, planning and tactics
cloak is... "poof"! you can't see me.
blah
Corporate training in me is coming out. If yer gonna knock all the ideas, then offer a solution
As for me, I won't accept that humanity needs to have every bit of tech handed to them by another race. And I don't want to see IS become home for a half dozen alien races. For me, the appeal of the game is all the political shuffling between the various nations and the idea that we're getting ready for the Martians' eventual re-appearance. If this gets introduced as some feature of a tentacled-species of evil doers, it's gonna lost interest.
Instead of blowing up, can we have the risk of crew casualties adding up? Some kind of poisoning, be it radiation, heat, etc etc..........
Really, it would stress the horrific side effects of crude technology.
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